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Old 02-25-2012, 09:40 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by thekarens View Post
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral or right. I don't argue that he has every right to do it, but as a voter it's something I would want to know because it says something about his values and character.

There are a lot of things that are legal that people shouldn't be doing.

Morality has nothing to do with this. It is every citizen's right to use any legal means possible to pay the smallest amount of tax. I think that is written in the IRS 1040 instruction book. Only a fool would over pay taxes.

Hmmm, I gotta learn more about this offshore parking of funds to see if I can do it.
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by thekarens View Post
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral or right
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Originally Posted by Hemond View Post
Morality has nothing to do with this. It is every citizen's right to use any legal means possible to pay the smallest amount of tax.
Legality is different than morality, which is what thekarens was saying. And in the context of the election, that actually matters: I can't sue him for it but I can always vote for the other guy.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:44 PM   #48
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Legality is different than morality, which is what thekarens was saying. And in the context of the election, that actually matters: I can't sue him for it but I can always vote for the other guy.
It is not immoral to legally pay as little tax as possible. If parking investments in the Caymans is legal, why not do it? The IRS specifically encourages people to use every legal means to pay as little tax as possible.

Sort of like retirees moving to Florida/Texas/Arizona for 6 months and 1 day in order to pay no state income tax back home.

Indeed I would question the intelligence of anyone who deliberately chooses to pay more taxes than the law requires.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:20 AM   #49
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The government has no god given right to what's in my pocket.

People should hide every dime they can get their hands on.

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Old 02-29-2012, 10:45 PM   #50
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It is not immoral to legally pay as little tax as possible. If parking investments in the Caymans is legal, why not do it? The IRS specifically encourages people to use every legal means to pay as little tax as possible.
The only problem is that the laws are written to favor the rich. Middle class or the poor can't afford lobbyists to influence politicians, while the rich and the corporations can. Romney says he can relate to the unemployed because he is too, but he somehow earns way more than me and pay about half of my tax rate. I'm guessing that's the situation with people like Kim Kardashian as well. What you're saying is that it's moral to do whatever is legal, but morality is a question of what's right vs what's wrong. Companies like Bain Captial (where Romney made most of his money) influence laws by spending big bucks on lobbyists that make sure those loopholes are kept open. You can't afford that and no one is representing you. Does that sound right to you?

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The government has no god given right to what's in my pocket.
I know that the popular Tea Party ideology is "keep government out of my pocket". The government may have "no god given right to what's in (your) pocket", but they certainly have the constitutional right to do so. Read the constitution and get back to me.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Red Baron



I know that the popular Tea Party ideology is "keep government out of my pocket". The government may have "no god given right to what's in (your) pocket", but they certainly have the constitutional right to do so. Read the constitution and get back to me.
Anything can be constitutional if you get enough idiots to vote for it. Current taxation laws and enforcement are all about control and maintaining unsustainable spending levels and the bureaucracy status quo.

We don't have a tax revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Everyone loves taxes that eats someone else's paycheck. Those chickens will come home to roost soon enough.

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Old 03-01-2012, 12:53 AM   #52
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Quote:
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The government has no god given right to what's in my pocket.

People should hide every dime they can get their hands on.

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You are correct that GOD didn't give any government the right to taxation, but the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives Congress the power to tax "income" tho by vote of the people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

And hiding money isn't what Jesus did. He paid his taxes why can't others do so?!? http://christianity.about.com/od/faq...epayingtax.htm
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:56 AM   #53
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Anything can be constitutional if you get enough idiots to vote for it. Current taxation laws and enforcement are all about control and maintaining unsustainable spending levels and the bureaucracy status quo.

We don't have a tax revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Everyone loves taxes that eats someone else's paycheck. Those chickens will come home to roost soon enough.

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Where were you doing the Bush years?!?!

Cutting taxes and spending like a drunken sailor sure didn't bother conservatives back then when Congress in 2000 up to 2007 was doing the "borrow and spend like crazy" phase.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Hemond View Post
Morality has nothing to do with this. It is every citizen's right to use any legal means possible to pay the smallest amount of tax. I think that is written in the IRS 1040 instruction book. Only a fool would over pay taxes.

Hmmm, I gotta learn more about this offshore parking of funds to see if I can do it.
Umtay.. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemond View Post
It is not immoral to legally pay as little tax as possible. If parking investments in the Caymans is legal, why not do it? The IRS specifically encourages people to use every legal means to pay as little tax as possible.

Sort of like retirees moving to Florida/Texas/Arizona for 6 months and 1 day in order to pay no state income tax back home.

Indeed I would question the intelligence of anyone who deliberately chooses to pay more taxes than the law requires.
IRS tells folks about tax credits, breaks, etc.

But, I have never heard IRS say "pay as little tax as possible"?!?!
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:12 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLME

Where were you doing the Bush years?!?!

Cutting taxes and spending like a drunken sailor sure didn't bother conservatives back then when Congress in 2000 up to 2007 was doing the "borrow and spend like crazy" phase.
Serving my country is where I was, with not much time for Internet political punditry.

If you were lucky enough to have been with me in a Blackhawk or MRAP you'd hear me saying exactly the same thing I am saying now.

I don't care who is spending us into the ground. The tax payer, rich and poor, should not be the Feds personal ATM card to cover the losses of special interests.

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Old 03-01-2012, 08:45 AM   #56
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I see no reason why one can't park funds in offshore investments. I don't see why I can't do the same...If a legal tax avoidance method exists, then use it. I question the intelligence of anyone who doesn't. Nothing whatsoever to do with morality. The IRS themselves encourages you to pay as little as legally possible.

As for Romney paying little taxes, I suspect the dude pays a boatload of taxes. He may have a lower rate, but he still pays zillions.

If anything it is patriotic to pay as little tax as possible. The current US/state/municipal governments are shameless tax sluts. They will spend every dime they collect and demand more. It is our duty as citizens to limit the funds our current politicos have access to. Just like tough love for a drug addicted offspring.

Government is a drug addict hooked on our tax dollars.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemond
I see no reason why one can't park funds in offshore investments. I don't see why I can't do the same...If a legal tax avoidance method exists, then use it. I question the intelligence of anyone who doesn't. Nothing whatsoever to do with morality. The IRS themselves encourages you to pay as little as legally possible.

As for Romney paying little taxes, I suspect the dude pays a boatload of taxes. He may have a lower rate, but he still pays zillions.

If anything it is patriotic to pay as little tax as possible. The current US/state/municipal governments are shameless tax sluts. They will spend every dime they collect and demand more. It is our duty as citizens to limit the funds our current politicos have access to. Just like tough love for a drug addicted offspring.

Government is a drug addict hooked on our tax dollars.
People also overlook the huge amount of money he and others like him give to charity. I'd rather have them give the money to charities than to the government, I'm sure they'll put it to better use then the government would!
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:56 AM   #58
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As for Romney paying little taxes, I suspect the dude pays a boatload of taxes. He may have a lower rate, but he still pays zillions.

...Government is a drug addict hooked on our tax dollars.
Anyone that advocates massive government overreach into another person's individual freedom should not complain when the comes back around and bites them on the rump, because that is exactly what will happen.

I advocate the flat tax. Every citizen should pay exactly the same tax rate, with no deductions. No way in hell I could ever get behind a punitive tax rate just because someone makes more money that me.

Why? Because it won't be long before a punitive tax is levied against my income bracket next under the guise of "of paying my fair share". Those parasites in government just wont stop until we are Greece.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:31 PM   #59
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I think any reasonable person would agree that the government needs to take at least some of our money for things like public school, roads, military, etc. The only difference in opinions are the amount, who should pay more, and who should pay less. Ideally, everyone should pay less and get rid of useless programs. Realistically, that's not happening.

Now, the problem with the idea that everyone should use whatever loophole available to pay the least amount of taxes is that most of the loopholes exist for the rich. In fact, the whole system is rigged to favor the rich. Even just looking at Wall Street, they can afford better brokers access to better investment opportunities, and lawyers who could advise them to park their money in places like Caymen Islands so they can dodge taxes and act like a security blanket because even if you fall heavily in debt in the US, the creditors can't touch your other millions overseas.

Can a low to middle income people do that? Someone previously posted that everyone should park their money in the Cayman, but how many regular people do you know who has money in the Cayman? Most don't know how and can't afford legal advice. Most can't afford the legal fees, registration fees, minimum investment of $10k for a crappy risky place to $100k for a good one. And if regular people fall heavily in debt in the US, they can get everything they own taken away including their houses and cars. So in our system, the rich have a safety net while the others are left to fend for themselves.

I don't have a kid, but if I do, I would want him/her to have exactly the same opportunity to succeed compared to a trust fund kid. Of course I understand that the trust fund kid will have millions of dollars head start, but I would want my kid to have the same opportunities and same punishment for failure. That's my idea of America.

I wouldn't mind everyone paying the same tax rate even though I know why progressive rates exist. I hate many forms of welfare. But I do realize cutting some programs for the poor and collecting income tax from them is a drop in the bucket. And I do think that even a slight bump in the *actual* tax rate for the rich and corporations and tightening our budget in other areas would have a far more significant effect.

Just look at any financial data of government spending. Welfare is 12% of our national budget. You could trim some of that but the legit programs such as food stamps or unemployment benefits are the bulk of welfare so we're not gonna save much. Taxing the poor is also a drop in the bucket: They may not pay income tax, but they already do pay payroll tax which is way more than the income tax we could collect from them.

I'm in the 28% tax bracket. I don't really mind the poorer people paying less. I'm single and have about 1/3 of my income to invest even though I live in a decent place and drive a decent car and I know a lot of people who can't afford that "luxury". What pisses me off is the fact that people who can afford to invest 2/3 of their income or even 99/100 of their income can pay less *actual* tax than I do because they have access to loopholes that I don't. Shouldn't they be paying at least the same rate as I am?

Obama proposed to lower the corporate tax rate to 28% (which is exactly what I'm paying) and close those loopholes for them, which not so surprisingly will generate more revenue because they currently pay even less than that because of all the loopholes. I say F Yeah, but some people oppose it and some even go as far as saying that people should take advantage of those loopholes that are only available to the rich instead of removing those loopholes. Really?

Obama is also winding down the wars and continuously shrinking the military budget (24% of government spending). He tackled health care (22% of government spending) with universal health care that's saving money in every single first world country in the world, but he gets labeled a "socialist" for that. What other program can he try to save money on to flip the deficit around? The only other significant government spending is Social Security and Medicare (22% of government spending) that shouldn't be cut because people already paid for those programs in their working lives.

There's a certain "news" network out there that specializes in telling a person who is getting raped that they're getting raped by someone else. It's basically a network where the rich people tell other rich people to tell the middle class to blame the poor. Wake up!
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:05 AM   #60
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Anyone that wants someone else to pay more in taxes should be required to write a free check to the IRS first and lead by example.
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