UI rant/5600 vs 4050 pics?

[Invader J]

Coming from a family of designers, and being one myself, I love technology that has a great user interface. And lately, US phones just do not cut it. It's like the interfaces were designed my techs instead of designers. Taking SonyE's S710a as an example:

The Japanese version of this phone has an iPod-like scroll wheel for navigation, surrounded by a 4-way pad, and a center button. This allows access to the entire phone's functions without having to actually press any navigation buttons - scroll to menu choice, hit center. Scroll phonebook super fast, hit center. All the menus were 'circular' to reflect this form of navigation. And so forth. I've tried this interface out and it was a total joy.

Then SonyE brought a similar model to the US. They got rid of the scrollwheel and put the ever-ubiquitous 4-way pad in, and changed the menu system to the usual 9x9 grid. So now it takes a huge number of individual presses to perform the phone's functions.

SonyE also screwed this phone up by not allowing you to control the font size - what's the point of a 2.3" QVGA screen if the fonts are huge? It's completely wasted. If I'm reading the same amount of information on this huge screen as an older 176x220 res, 1.8" LCD, what was the point of upgrading?

Frankly I think it's laziness - we're a lazy country and we're afraid to explore new things. Look at Apple's iPod - the whole thing is a scrollwheel and everyone loves it. Why SonyE wouldn't bring that wheel over to the US version of the phone is totally beyond me.

Cut to the new 5600. Despite them not using a larger LCD (Sanyo's standard on the Japanese market for LCD size is a massive 2.4"), they did do QVGA. On the other hand, they did not make the battery meter, signal strength meter, and bottom buttons take advantage of the new higher resolution screen - and they also made the bottom buttons into a bar. Big mistake as it just wastes screen real estate. Again, laziness perhaps? Just sticking to what has worked before maybe - but it's a step backwards which is quite puzzling.

Comparing these UI quirks to the Toshiba 4050, I think that Toshiba trumps almost every other Sprint phone in the UI department. The graphical elements such as the meters make full use of the QVGA resolution and are very tiny and unobtrusive. You have full control over the idle screen, even opting for a No Navigation option - which eliminates the soft button display onscreen and replaces it with a very tiny date and time display. Add the fact that the entire main menu graphics are customizable, and you've got UI gold (even with the usual 9x9 grid layout).

====

My question is, does anyone have both a 4050 and a 5600 they could take some comparison shots of? I'm most interested in:

1. What a text message looks like on both phones set at the smallest font size

2. A typical browser page with the font set to smallest

These are two things where the 4050 excells - it can fit a huge amount of info onscreen thanks to the good use of the QVGA resolution and sharp small fonts.

I'd be grateful if anyone could do a few comparison photos! Thanks in advance.

[DigitalExciting]

I agree 100% The Sanyo 5600 does not utilize it's display anywhere near the realm of the Toshiba, or just by judging by photos, the A800 for that matter.

[bluecoyote]

"No Guidance" is such a smart feature on the 4050. When it comes to UI, the 4050 is amazingly good.

My one big 'question' about the 4050's interface involves the peculiar decision to render almost everything in 256 colors- well below the 262K the screen is capable of. Also, the default 9x9 icons are drab looking. Of course, not like I care, since I can always make my own :-)

Also, the iPod is popular because it matches form, function, fit, and finish.

[CoreyTheGent]

The Samsung A800 will probably have the best UI.

seanjean8080, I thought you had a 5600? You liar.

[bluecoyote]

The Samsung A800 will probably have the best UI.

Not if it has a UI anything like other Samsungs.


Goofy animations and pointlessly animated icons do not make a good UI. They can HELP, but chances are, no.

[DigitalExciting]

I like it.....The animated interface in the A700 is cool, especially the 3-D screensavers

[CoreyTheGent]

Nevermind, please forget I said anything. I can already tell where this is going.

Like InvaderJ, I also wish to see these comparison pictures, but there have been numerous requests for them so I doubt we'll be getting any. I guess I'll have to wait to see the 5600 demo.

[bluecoyote]

$10.00 says they use that font in the web browser, like they did on the A700.

[ssaifull]

i'm a novice with the digicam... but here's what i could muster:

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140008.JPG

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140009.JPG

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140010.JPG

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140011.JPG

[CoreyTheGent]

Hmm.. I likes what I sees. Thanks, SS.

[DigitalExciting]

The font looks awsome.

[ssaifull]

you're welcome fellas. keep in mind though that my camera is way zoomed up on the screen, so in real life, that font is small as hell!

[Invader J]

Hey ssaifull!

Thanks for those photos - they dont seem to be showing up embedded properly so I'll post the URLs:

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140008.JPG
http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140009.JPG
http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140010.JPG
http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/3140011.JPG

Looking at your photos:

- Looks like the 5600 can find a good amount of info onscreen, and the font looks cleaner than the 4050's font.

- The 4050 definitely has a leg-up on the 5600 when it comes to using the screen real estate/resolution - the bottom and top status bars on the 5600 are so huge for a QVGA screen.

- The 5600 does render some nice web elements, such as the date/time stamp in the SU WAP forum.

I still think that Sanyo rushed things a bit, or are saving a UI overhaul for their next phone - from a company that makes great UIs for their Japanese-market phones, they basically just ported over their standard US-market UI to the 5600 with one or two teaks. They could have totally cut down the size of the status bar(s) and meters! It's a shame.

I'm going to go check out the 5600 in person to compare it to the 4050, I'll update with my thoughts. As someone that uses their phone for lots of data, e-mail, and text messaging good UI and use of high-res screens is pretty high up on my wishlist!

Thanks again for the photos man!

[ssaifull]

one more screenshot filled with text. that is a lot of text!

http://www.southsidefunnies.com/userfiles/ssaifull/X0008.JPG

[CoreyTheGent]

That's beautiful. I'll finally be able to access my bank website again.

[shumacher]

Coming from a family of designers, and being one myself, I love technology that has a great user interface. And lately, US phones just do not cut it. It's like the interfaces were designed my techs instead of designers. Taking SonyE's S710a as an example:

The Japanese version of this phone has an iPod-like scroll wheel for navigation, surrounded by a 4-way pad, and a center button. This allows access to the entire phone's functions without having to actually press any navigation buttons - scroll to menu choice, hit center. Scroll phonebook super fast, hit center. All the menus were 'circular' to reflect this form of navigation. And so forth. I've tried this interface out and it was a total joy.

Then SonyE brought a similar model to the US. They got rid of the scrollwheel and put the ever-ubiquitous 4-way pad in, and changed the menu system to the usual 9x9 grid. So now it takes a huge number of individual presses to perform the phone's functions.

SonyE also screwed this phone up by not allowing you to control the font size - what's the point of a 2.3" QVGA screen if the fonts are huge? It's completely wasted. If I'm reading the same amount of information on this huge screen as an older 176x220 res, 1.8" LCD, what was the point of upgrading?

Frankly I think it's laziness - we're a lazy country and we're afraid to explore new things. Look at Apple's iPod - the whole thing is a scrollwheel and everyone loves it. Why SonyE wouldn't bring that wheel over to the US version of the phone is totally beyond me.

Cut to the new 5600. Despite them not using a larger LCD (Sanyo's standard on the Japanese market for LCD size is a massive 2.4"), they did do QVGA. On the other hand, they did not make the battery meter, signal strength meter, and bottom buttons take advantage of the new higher resolution screen - and they also made the bottom buttons into a bar. Big mistake as it just wastes screen real estate. Again, laziness perhaps? Just sticking to what has worked before maybe - but it's a step backwards which is quite puzzling.

Comparing these UI quirks to the Toshiba 4050, I think that Toshiba trumps almost every other Sprint phone in the UI department. The graphical elements such as the meters make full use of the QVGA resolution and are very tiny and unobtrusive. You have full control over the idle screen, even opting for a No Navigation option - which eliminates the soft button display onscreen and replaces it with a very tiny date and time display. Add the fact that the entire main menu graphics are customizable, and you've got UI gold (even with the usual 9x9 grid layout).



Well, the 3x3 could be good with shortcuts. You have number keys 1-9 that corespond to each place on the menu. Let users hit numbers or scroll. Having given people instructions on the operation of menus over the phone, I can tell you that shortcuts would make tech support easier. Samsung's phones are the only ones I've seen with good shortcut support. Sanyo and Nokia are terrible with shortcuts only on the top level menus. On Nokia PM models, there's even a time limit, and pressing a shortcut number too late or too far in will drop you out the menu, and the phone will assume that you've begun entering a phone number.

I don't think the scroll wheel would work that well, and the few reviews I've seen don't give it high marks. I don't think it's as intuitive as a keypad for number entry. I suppose they could have a raised round center bump on the 5 key and make the whole keypad a touchpad. That would allow them to print the numbers on there and detect a user tapping those areas, still allowing for scroll wheel behavior, running the finger around the raised center dot.

So, the whole square here would be touchpad. I would raise the 5 key about as much as the center button on a 3rd gen iPod and put a roughly .030" deep groove for the outer ring to give tactile feedback when the user leaves the scroll wheel area.

http://www.zbuffer.com/shumacher/example1.png

An intriguing thing I've seen recently was a small touch sensitive strip on the side of the phone for rapid scrolling by rubbing the strip.

I agree with you - one of the first things I do with a new phone is set the smallest text size for everything. I wish my sanyo could use a font as small as my 6225 did. I'd fit so much more text on the screen.

[bluecoyote]

That is fantastical.

[bluecoyote]

Sorry I don't have a better picture. The Toshiba's screen is too bright for my camera to handle (that's a halogen torchere I've bent over on my desk) CNET News isn't the best site to display the ability of how much text you can cram, but there's an example of the font.

[shumacher]

I bought the MM7400 after the MM5600 came out. I decided that I didn't need that much phone. The MP3/AAC and memory card didn't seem that important. These screen shots are the only things that have me rethinking that. That much text on a screen seems... devine.

[CoreyTheGent]

Bought the 7400 after the 5600 came out? First time I've ever heard of that..

[shumacher]

Bought the 7400 after the 5600 came out? First time I've ever heard of that..
I liked the looks of the 7400, but wanted to wait to see what the 5600 had before I made my decision. I've got about 10 days left to return this phone if the 5600 comes up with something, but I think I'm staying.

[The Oracle]

Sorry I don't have a better picture. The Toshiba's screen is too bright for my camera to handle (that's a halogen torchere I've bent over on my desk) CNET News isn't the best site to display the ability of how much text you can cram, but there's an example of the font.

Looks like the Toshiba has the 2 big bars too.

[bluecoyote]

The bars dissapear on the idle screen, letting you show off the screen. Getting rid of the bars on the browser is somewhat impractical, as I rely on service indicator when I'm browsing. Possibly, the bottom bar could go.

[Viper966]

i have a tosh 4050 and 5600... ill try to take a picture tom. if this thread is still near the top

[The Oracle]

just search for it

[bluecoyote]

Viper, since you've got both side by side, which has the better screen?

[Viper966]

the 4050 is my gf's she isnt here right now... she will be back in an a couple of hours... tommorow ill put the same backround on both phones and take pics with my nikon d100 so u get HIGH res pics of both side by side

[jschu22]

Question for those that browse these forums with your phone- Has the wap version always been so good and/or does it have anything to do with the 5600 Im using? I always used my Treo 650 so I really didnt have a need to use the wap one.

[poetrocity]

ya, some pics of both screens or both phones side by side would make everyones decision better. hope you get to post the pics viper. would be awesome.

[Halo1982]

I know apple has patented the hell out of the scroll wheel, and anyone who tried something similar in the US would probably be sued to death. This could be why SE ditched it on the US version.

[bluecoyote]

Nokia's got two scroll-wheel phones coming to the USA.

[shumacher]

I know apple has patented the hell out of the scroll wheel, and anyone who tried something similar in the US would probably be sued to death. This could be why SE ditched it on the US version.
Now what I've read on patents pretty much tells me that one can get a patent on anything new and original, or something that significantly improves an existing product. IANAL, but I'd expect that while iPod scroll wheel wouldn't cut it, my idea for a scroll wheel with button functionality, or any number of other designs that significantly extend the function incorporated in Apple's design would be in themselves patentable. I don't think Sony-Ericsson did anything significant beyond Apple's scroll wheel implementation.

[bat2144]

Perhaps I can add my two cents here. I was a 4050 user for a year before picking up the 5600. The fact that it took Sprint an entire year to put out another qvga screen is proof as to how ahead of its time (american time at least) the 4050 was. After using that screen, there was no way on god's green earth that I could buy a phone without at least the same screen. So when the 5600 hit, with the same screen plus the storage and media features, it was a no brainer.

The text on the 5600 screen is great, just as it was on the 4050. Basically no difference. But going from great to great is just fine.

The UI is a different story. The 4050 UI is just a step above every single phone offered by any service in the country. The amount of customization available was just absolutely absurd. I loved every bit of it. You can find some of the menus I made in the forums here. That said, I was well aware that any successor to the 4050 that I bought would not come close to that level of customization.

I must say, the hardest thing to get used to on the 5600 was the considerably fewer display options. But the 5600 features far outweigh the little benefits of the 4050's UI. But the 4050 really is in a class of its own. I can gaurantee I will buy Toshiba's next incarnation because it just seems like they actually tried to make people happy.

[Invader J]

I must say, the hardest thing to get used to on the 5600 was the considerably fewer display options. But the 5600 features far outweigh the little benefits of the 4050's UI. But the 4050 really is in a class of its own.

That's actually one of the reasons I'm not going to jump on the 5600. I've been thinking about it for a few days but the added features of the 5600 just aren't enough. It does a lot better but just doesn't do anything new. No screen size improvement (still 2.1") for example. Sure it's QVGA, but slapping the same tired UI/OS on it is just a waste. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a good phone, but not enough to make me give up my 4050.

Anyway, SK-EarthLink should show off their stuff soon! If it's good I'm planning on porting over to them. Unless the coverage in my 'hood improves that is - then it's all about the A800. :D

[The Oracle]

SK-Earth is only in the preliminary stages.

[bluecoyote]

J, I'd put it the other way. The 5600 does a lot of things NEW (mp3 player, charge over USB, flash drive, memory card slot, pictbridge) , but doesn't IMPROVE upon things like the UI. Sure, it's nice from other Sanyos, and I wouldn't protest if it was sent as a replacement for my 4050, either, but I wish another phone company would sweat the little details.

[The Oracle]

I'm sure another company will:hee:

[bluecoyote]

Sony Ericsson does an excellent job in this department. Nokia and Moto do a good job in this department. Samsung and LG? Nowhere to be found.

[The Oracle]

Sony Ericsson does an excellent job in this department. Nokia and Moto do a good job in this department. Samsung and LG? Nowhere to be found.

Sony Ericssons interfaces are very refined an animated. Very nice. Nokia series 40 devices are ho hum, but their Symbian devices are great in that respect. Motorola? No better than Samsung or LG is here in the states. In the Asian/European market? All 3 have highly customizable, polished interfaces. For that matter, most everything is better in Europe and Asia than here in the US reguarding mobile devices.

[Invader J]

SK-Earth is only in the preliminary stages.

Product announcements are supposed to start soon (with availability later on in the year), it was supposed to be before the end of March but they're still finalizing the actual co-venture. I can wait though, if their they deliver what they're saying they will.

[bat2144]

That's actually one of the reasons I'm not going to jump on the 5600. I've been thinking about it for a few days but the added features of the 5600 just aren't enough. It does a lot better but just doesn't do anything new. No screen size improvement (still 2.1") for example. Sure it's QVGA, but slapping the same tired UI/OS on it is just a waste. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a good phone, but not enough to make me give up my 4050.

Anyway, SK-EarthLink should show off their stuff soon! If it's good I'm planning on porting over to them. Unless the coverage in my 'hood improves that is - then it's all about the A800. :D


So you would rather have a bigger screen over playing movies and music on your phone? Dude, get your priorities straight. The 5600 is 1000 times the phone the 4050 is.

[bluecoyote]

The Sanyo 5600's interface falls short of the Vm4050, that was J's point. For instance, I really want MobiTV / Sprint TV, and was offered to upgrade to the Samsung A700, but, despite improvements in two areas I wanted, it did existing things much poorer (web browsing, interface, etc.) In that case, it is not worth paying for the 5600 (full price) to replace his Vm4050. That's where his priorities are.

And yes, Motorola has a much better interface than Samsung and LG. Motorola now allows you to "skin" your interface- adjust justification (center or left) , among other things.

S60 is probably my favorite UI (now that certain eccentricities have been corrected). I love the SE UI...I love a lot of things about Sony Ericsson phones, but, unfortunately, it's SonyEricsson, which means:
- Memory Sticks (the worthless, crappiest format out there)
- Poor Reception (just compare it to Nokia. No contest.)
- Never ever ever for CDMA
Ouch.

[CoreyTheGent]

And yes, Motorola has a much better interface than Samsung and LG. Motorola now allows you to "skin" your interface- adjust justification (center or left) , among other things.I agree 100%.

[Invader J]

So you would rather have a bigger screen over playing movies and music on your phone? Dude, get your priorities straight. The 5600 is 1000 times the phone the 4050 is.

That wasn't quite my point. Sure I'd like that stuff, but just that is not enough to pick up a 5600 - there's not enough to make me want it. And as I stated, my priorities are straight - I do a lot of text reading on my phone so the bigger the screen, the better. Also the US is in last place with screens when the rest of the world (including Europe) are getting 2.4" screens standard. Part of the reason is that mobile data is just not pushed anywhere near as much as it is overseas. D'oh!

[JoMamma]

Ok, im going to ask this.. whoever it was that has the 4050 and the 5600 please pick a internet page.. pref with some graphics, go to them on each phone, and take a side by side pic of them.. so we can compare.

[bat2144]

The Sanyo 5600's interface falls short of the Vm4050, that was J's point. For instance, I really want MobiTV / Sprint TV, and was offered to upgrade to the Samsung A700, but, despite improvements in two areas I wanted, it did existing things much poorer (web browsing, interface, etc.) In that case, it is not worth paying for the 5600 (full price) to replace his Vm4050. That's where his priorities are.


The 5600 does nothing worse then the 4050 though. And many things better. Its just the UI. I think it is lunacy to not buy a phone because of a UI. The UI is in essence useless. It serves no actual purpose or function besides just taking you to the other actual functions. Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. To each his own, but jeez, who cares.

[bluecoyote]

The 5600 does nothing worse then the 4050 though. And many things better. Its just the UI. I think it is lunacy to not buy a phone because of a UI. The UI is in essence useless. It serves no actual purpose or function besides just taking you to the other actual functions. Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. To each his own, but jeez, who cares.

I care, because the UI determines how I use everything. That's pretty darn important.

As for things it does worse specifically, I'll have a full list next week when mine arrives.

[Invader J]

The 5600 does nothing worse then the 4050 though. And many things better. Its just the UI. I think it is lunacy to not buy a phone because of a UI. The UI is in essence useless. It serves no actual purpose or function besides just taking you to the other actual functions. Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. To each his own, but jeez, who cares.

Obviously we'll agree to disagree, but the UI is extremely important - the UI is the only way you operate the phone. It's the only thing you see. Sure, you press buttons, but those buttons only control the UI. It's the only part of the phone you actually interface with. MP3 player, camera, videocamera, all useless without a UI, right? Those actual functions you mention all have a UI that you need to operate those functions. It serves an absolutely huge purpose, one that most people take for granted.

I'm a fan of Apple's iPod, so for that as an example, it's one of the most efficient, usable UIs around. I can get to any function, playlist, album, artist within a split second thanks to a scroll wheel that interfaces with a hierarchal menu system.

On the other hand, take that Sony S710a phone I mentioned earlier, and apply my argument for the iPod. Not using any shortcuts (since the iPod really doesn't have any), I'd have to:
1. Press Menu
2. Press the navigation keys a few times to get to Phone Book
3. Press the navigation keys a bunch more times to get to the entry I want to call.

If Sony had stuck with their Japanese UI of a circular menu with scrollwheel, I could get to my phone book entry in a fraction of a second and only 2 or 3 actual button presses.

Most people totally underestimate the value of good interface design. It's everywhere - your TV, computer, even your car has a user interface (dashboard, controls, etc). Unfortunately most every Japanese company tends to dumb-down their kit for the US - let's face it, person for person compared to Japan, we're nowhere near as technologically inclined nor savvy. Bummer.

[shumacher]

Wirelessly posted (MM7400: Mozilla/4.0 (MobilePhone MM-7400/US/1.0) NetFront/3.1 MMP/2.0)

The Sanyo 5600's interface falls short of the Vm4050, that was J's point. For instance, I really want MobiTV / Sprint TV, and was offered to upgrade to the Samsung A700, but, despite improvements in two areas I wanted, it did existing things much poorer (web browsing, interface, etc.) In that case, it is not worth paying for the 5600 (full price) to replace his Vm4050. That's where his priorities are.


The 5600 does nothing worse then the 4050 though. And many things better. Its just the UI. I think it is lunacy to not buy a phone because of a UI. The UI is in essence useless. It serves no actual purpose or function besides just taking you to the other actual functions. Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. To each his own, but jeez, who cares.

I think that the ui is very important. I would buy or not buy, and even return my phone completely on the quality of the UI. I mean right now, I'm considering returning this phone for the UI on this thing. A 7 megapixel camera and EV-DO are useless if users can't operate the thing. Look At All The Wireless Posts Here With The First Letter Of Each Word In Caps. It's a UI issue, and that's not good.