Inflight Decision Toward Safe Use of Wireless Devices Questioned

[DreamSiren007]

Inflight employees face possible increased duty in determining safe use of portable electronic devices on the aircraft. Regulations of onboard PED practices depend on FCC guidelines at the moment. Click here (http://rcrnews.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?newsId=17725) for the story.

[CKingAdventure]

DreamSiren:

Very interesting article!

I spoke with several of my airline clients and they will probably continue their current personal electronics policy so as not to create extra cabin crew workload. Two stated they would possibly be more lenient in the premium classes. This will really be an airline decision and not a flight crew decision.

Thank you for sharing the article.

Michael

[DreamSiren007]

You're welcome, Michael. I'm actually checking up on this policy as I work for Southwest Airlines myself. It will be interesting to see how things go with the FCC over time.

Claire

[CKingAdventure]

Claire:

I just spoke with the chief of cabin crew personnel for Qantas Airways and they have no plans to change their policies and procedures at this time. I would suspect the OneWorld Alliance will issue a standard policy based upon an FCC ruling for all their members to follow.

What part of the vast SWA empire are you a part of?

Michael

[DreamSiren007]

Customer service at the moment and flight attendant in a few months... :)

As for the PED policy, I'm not sure if it will go through or not, but I do have a feeling that it will be eventually adjusted to suit the needs of passengers, especially business travelers. For now, however, the whole idea is still pending...

Claire

[icsedge1]

Can someone who knows the science behind this explain how cell phones could cause problems with the (secure) radio communications a plane uses? We know of course that some phones worked on 9/11, but as the highjackers had turned off the radios/transponders, they were not at risk of interferrence anyway. Now, I don't expect to get good cell service flying along at 400 MPH, but why do I have a feeling the restriction is more about the airlines wanting their outrageous fees to use their air phones, than it is about radio problems?

Oh, and my A620 has 'airplane mode', but if they tell me I can't use it in coach (but I could if I was in business/first class), I will not be happy...

[CKingAdventure]

There have been documented cases where cellular telephones and other transmitters have impacted aircraft navigational signals. This is not a frequent occurrence; however, it has happened often enough for the FAA to ban cell phone usage in the cabin.

This is really not an airline issue, but an FAA and flight safety issue.

As to your point whether airlines do this to force you to use their in-flight telephones, this is really not the case. The average per-segment in-flight phone usage on international flights is between 2.5 and 3.0 calls/flight. In-flight telephones are a huge loss for the carriers, but they feel compelled to provide them as a service to their passengers. Domestic flight usage is much less.

Even if the FAA lessens their restriction on this issue, no carrier will delegate that responsibility to cabin crew.

Michael

[The 8]

i actually got a signal in an airplane with my 4900 flying back from las vegas a year ago!! i know you're not supposed to use them, but i was just curious.... i waited until the plane was over what looked to be a decent sized town and .... whalla, i had a digital sprint signal.... i was suprised!!!

[CKingAdventure]

Recently, a domestic flight returned to its origin just 20 minutes into its flight because of navigational irregularities. It was traced to a man using his Blackberry on the flight.

They had to escort him off because the other passengers wished to do him bodily harm.

Michael

[MrFlashport]

Can someone who knows the science behind this explain how cell phones could cause problems with the (secure) radio communications a plane uses? We know of course that some phones worked on 9/11, but as the highjackers had turned off the radios/transponders, they were not at risk of interferrence anyway. Now, I don't expect to get good cell service flying along at 400 MPH, but why do I have a feeling the restriction is more about the airlines wanting their outrageous fees to use their air phones, than it is about radio problems?

Oh, and my A620 has 'airplane mode', but if they tell me I can't use it in coach (but I could if I was in business/first class), I will not be happy...

As pointed out, it is more an FAA issue regarding RF radiating devices. And in regards to the 9/11 misinformation promulgated by the mass media, the calls were placed from GTE (Verizon) Airfones including the well-documented conversation between a Verizon Airfone operator and Mark Beemer (Let's Roll).
PCS and cellular networks were designed for terrestrial use, and performance is poor at that altitude (pilot pollution, etc) if at all. Analog (AMPS) does work a little better, however, frequency re-use is a big issue there (not to mention the interference to other sites you will generate from that alititude).

Also, keep in mind, the more RF transmitters you operate, the more potential for problems. An RF "polluted" enviornment is not a good thing, and signals can combine to overload sensitive nav/com equipment. (iDEN and other TDMA transmitters are very nasty offenders for RFI). Would you REALLY want to risk safety (even though the risk is moderately low)? The FAA says no, and until they change the rules, that is the way it will be.

Then there is the issue of FCC regulations, the FCC rules also say that operating a cellular or PCS handset from an aircraft is illegal (due to FAA regulations) and also can create issues with networks on the ground. At 30,000 feet, you can easily ping a hundred or so sites. This causes problems with the switch as it sees you attempting to affiliate in so many places at the same time, which ends in failed calls and some systems activate fraud watch (the software thinks something funny is going on).

Besides, I think of it as the one place left in America where you DON'T hear constantly ringing cellphones (instead, bratty kids and loud talking obnoxious people none the less!) in your ears.

[MrFlashport]

Can someone who knows the science behind this explain how cell phones could cause problems with the (secure) radio communications a plane uses? We know of course that some phones worked on 9/11, but as the highjackers had turned off the radios/transponders, they were not at risk of interferrence anyway. Now, I don't expect to get good cell service flying along at 400 MPH, but why do I have a feeling the restriction is more about the airlines wanting their outrageous fees to use their air phones, than it is about radio problems?

Oh, and my A620 has 'airplane mode', but if they tell me I can't use it in coach (but I could if I was in business/first class), I will not be happy...

and not to be picky but FYI civilian aircraft do not have "secure" communications (they should but they don't). VHF AM 108-136MHz, can be rec'vd on any scanner radio that recieves the VHF AM aircraft band (most do). The NAV portion of the band is the lower part (108-120) and the upper part is for voice. VHF radio has a useable range of about 150-300 miles, and is used for all over-land flights.

On overseas flights, commercial HF is used (1.5-30MHz), also in the clear, as HF provides for long range (over 300 miles) coverage while over the open ocean.

The radio communications systems used by aircraft have remained the same since the inception of the aviation industry.

Military comms, now you are talking "secure"...

[skrubol]

I didn't think there was an FAA ban at all? I thought the FAA regulations left it up to the captain (read airline), but all airlines prohibited it. FCC regulations I don't know about.

[Tiger]

The use of PED during the taxi back to gate is permitted by most airlines, provided they pass the actual test program by FAA.

[Maokh]

PCS and cellular networks were designed for terrestrial use, and performance is poor at that altitude (pilot pollution, etc) if at all.

It does not work at all. It will, however, give you a few bars of "service".

Analog (AMPS) does work a little better, however, frequency re-use is a big issue there (not to mention the interference to other sites you will generate from that alititude).

I sat next to a particular AT&T wireless employee on a plane, using a CDPD device. I was called a "Bit Bandit" and was told off how i was stealing capacity from her network. And she was right, line of sight was about 300 miles out the window.... CDPD and AMPS works pretty good, especially over rural/fringe areas. Making a call or sending a packet out near metro areas was nearly impossible...it was almost like i entered a noise cloud of non-cellular. Once I was 10-30 miles from a metro area, it went out.

Also, keep in mind, the more RF transmitters you operate, the more potential for problems. An RF "polluted" enviornment is not a good thing, and signals can combine to overload sensitive nav/com equipment. (iDEN and other TDMA transmitters are very nasty offenders for RFI). Would you REALLY want to risk safety (even though the risk is moderately low)? The FAA says no, and until they change the rules, that is the way it will be.


While TDMA radios scare the hell out of me (they make my speakers buzz, indicating that the inductive capacitance could cause interference with wire bundles inside the aircraft), I have yet to see one cause any disruption of nav/com equipment.....even while the device was inside the ****pit.