Vision Fraud? Help!

[kre]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and my problems with Sprint. According to Sprint, I currently owe them $2600 for PCS Vision Usage. I found out on March 7 when I received the bill in the mail. I immediately called customer service and had the Internet shut off completely from my phone and tried to figure out what happened. Over the next several weeks and countless conversations with every department, I found out that my phone was being used as a modem. Every few days huge downloads (up to 4 mb) were taking place. All of the usage took place between midnight & 6 a.m. when I am asleep. I have never used the phone as a modem and do not have the cables to do it or the know how. I have DSL at my home and office so there is no need for me to use the phone as a modem. I talked to the fraud department and all they had to say is that it is impossible to clone for vision. So after a month and a half of talking to countless representatives and getting the runaround, I am out of options. A few of the reps said that it is possible to clone for vision, it is just VERY difficult to do. So I do not know what to think, but all I can say is that I did not use the phone as a modem and anything is possible with technology. I think I am going to have to take legal action to get this matter resolved, but I wanted to see if anyone has any advice or if anyone has even heard of this type of thing before.

Thanks.

[fonefreak]

quite interesting. i dont think today's cell phone can be cloned like old days. maybe it's a billing error. wait, you got 8100 and live in LA area? wth.. same here lol. very scary..

[dumwaldo]

did you have a unlimited vision pack on that phone?

if you did then sprint absolutely can not charge you for the usage. all they have the legal right to do is turn off your service. they do NOT have the right to charge you a per KB rate if you had an unlimited vision pack.

BTW
it is not possible for sprint to turn off the internet on your phone. all sprint can do is turn off the unlimited service. the only way to turn off the internet service on a phone is to do it in the phones settings and disable vision.

so did you have an unlimited vision pack before?

peace,
dumwaldo

[SpineDoc]

He was accused of using the phone as a modem, doesnt Sprint state in their contract/TOS that usage as a modem is prohibited and will be charged a per KB fee? I know this is a HUGE gray area and has not been tested yet, but seems to me that in a legal action the contract you signed would tend to stand up. But that is a moot point in this case since he is not debating whether it was used as a modem or not.

This whole not allowing us to tether thing is really going to bite Sprint in the ass. Other carriers are providing tethering solutions, when will Sprint learn?

[dumwaldo]

the only thing in the TOS that i have ever read about using a phone as a modem is that they retain the right to deny or terminate your service. it does not say that they will have the right to charge you a per Kb rate. if you know of somewhere in the TOS that says they have the right to do something different i would appreciate if you could point it out for me.


this is from the TOS
Unlimited PCS Vision plans/options are only available with phones or PCS smart phones where the device is not being used as a modem in connection with other equipment (e.g., computers, PDAs, etc.) through use of connection kits or other phone-to-computer/PDA accessories, or Bluetooth or other wireless technology. Sprint reserves the right to deny or to terminate service without notice for any misuse.

[Snoopy572]

I bought a used phone recently and once I activated it the vision service was still active under the old user's name. I was able to do everything using his info. So I think it is indeed possible that someone else may have been using your info. Not sure how relevant what I'm saying could be to your situation, but maybe it can help with discovering new possibilities.

[dfwtxpatrick]

FYI....You CAN change your username and PW to match someone elses and it WILL allow you to access the web under their username & pw. Not only that, but you CAN access that persons downloads under the Content MGR on SPCS and get the downloads they have. Been there, done that!

This is a problem that SPCS knew about when I worked in the Trouble Dept. Getting someone to admit it will be very hard.

I suggest that you go onto the SPCS website and change your Username & Password ASAP! This will make your old info obsolete and should correct the issue.

Also, if you have anything in the content mgr on the SPCS website, see what date it was last downloaded and see if it matches the date it was dl to your phone. If you never downloaded anything to your content mgr, check it anyway, someone else may have dl some stuff and you get charged for that as well!

There's alot of things that would need to be done, but believe me, it can be done!

[SL10]

This is why I got my MSL codes to erase any account info in a phone b4 I sell it. Been there done that.

[SL10]

I bought a used phone recently and once I activated it the vision service was still active under the old user's name. I was able to do everything using his info. So I think it is indeed possible that someone else may have been using your info. Not sure how relevant what I'm saying could be to your situation, but maybe it can help with discovering new possibilities.
Btw Snoopy I hope you erased your account info in your old 8100 on ebay?

[dumwaldo]

i would just like to know...

1. did he have an unlimited vision package

and

2. how did he have the "Internet shut off completely"

[sideman7]

I ran into the same problem with an 8100 I sold to a friend... I thought I had erased everything, but my vision info was still there. The next month, I got billed for vision usage on my old phone! Fortunately, I was able to get it straightened out fairly easily....

[Costcolio]

Vision can be hijacked and Sprint knows it. I would also like to know if kre had unlimited vision.

[Alchemy]

FYI....You CAN change your username and PW to match someone elses and it WILL allow you to access the web under their username & pw. Not only that, but you CAN access that persons downloads under the Content MGR on SPCS and get the downloads they have. Been there, done that!

This is a problem that SPCS knew about when I worked in the Trouble Dept. Getting someone to admit it will be very hard.

I suggest that you go onto the SPCS website and change your Username & Password ASAP! This will make your old info obsolete and should correct the issue.

Also, if you have anything in the content mgr on the SPCS website, see what date it was last downloaded and see if it matches the date it was dl to your phone. If you never downloaded anything to your content mgr, check it anyway, someone else may have dl some stuff and you get charged for that as well!

There's alot of things that would need to be done, but believe me, it can be done!

You just described a security hole big enough to drive a MAC truck thru. This computer/communications security engineer is freaked...

It still would be useful to know if kre had Vision, but with a hole that big, even an inept lawyer could drive his Beemer thru it.

[kre]

Thanks everyone for your input. It is really helpful.

I did not have a vision package at all. I used to but I never used it so I cancelled it, but I could still access the Internet, as you probably know, I am just charged for it. Sprint is able to disable the Internet completely from your phone. They switched my phone/plan to IP Basic only (that's what they called it) and I can no longer log onto the Internet from my phone and my username and password do not work when I try to sign into the vision part of the Sprint website.

I asked if someone could be using my username and password, but they said no, that the downloads were coming from my phone and each phone has its own IP address so it is impossible to steal...

So the charges stopped occurring the day I shut off the internet, which is the same day I found out about the charges, but the problem is that I still owe them $2,600. They offered to give me a "courtesy credit" for $800 because I have been a good customer, but that's all I could get out of them after a month and a half.

I am having a lawyer look into the matter and your comments will DEFINITELY help my case. If you have any additional input, I would REALLY appreciate it!

Thanks!
kirstin

[jg013c]

My comment is that a lawyer may wind up costing you more than the $1800 Sprint said you owe them ($2600-$800service credit). This is why they have small claims court, so ordinary people can defend their rights for small calims.

[justinwatts]

Yea, definitely go the small claims route, or find a lawyer from the church you go to or from someone your family knows that will do it for little or nothing. A regular lawyer will cost you a TON. Gather evidence like what people have been telling you here and try to find a real tech at a store who can attest to anything said here. He can be a witness for you.

[fonpirate]

i have two pcs phones both vision, and have tried to swap user names just to test ... never works, your username is linked to ESN.

also if by chance it were to "skip" the ESN verification, that person would have to know your vision password, so either you are full of ****, it is someone you know, or it is a sprint employee that is doing this.

the useage i am sure can be linked to the ESN that actually made the data connection, and sprint should be able to investigate that for you.

[freshmeat]

i have two pcs phones both vision, and have tried to swap user names just to test ... never works, your username is linked to ESN.

also if by chance it were to "skip" the ESN verification, that person would have to know your vision password, so either you are full of ****, it is someone you know, or it is a sprint employee that is doing this.

the useage i am sure can be linked to the ESN that actually made the data connection, and sprint should be able to investigate that for you.


User name is not linked to ESN, I can edit the phone via MSL code and place user and pass of a buddy and be online in no time,, did this when spcs couldnt get his phone provisioned for months.... unless they changed it in the system, doubtful it should still work..I think he has someone using his phone at night for inet or something is not exposed in this story.

On the basics of the meg usage , I have seen others here use well over 10meg a day for a month and never recieve a notice, me included... best get a lawyer.

[dboogie2288]

i have two pcs phones both vision, and have tried to swap user names just to test ... never works, your username is linked to ESN.


Like the monkey said, there is no ESN verification. When I was having problems with vision on my 5500, related to a User/pass error, I just used the user/pass from another phone I have activated, and could surf the web that way. Works just fine....as far as the IP of the phone goes, it makes sense, but I really don't think sprint has a way to track it. They may just be blowing smoke.

[dlmsduncan]

User name is not linked to ESN, I can edit the phone via MSL code and place user and pass of a buddy and be online in no time,, did this when spcs couldnt get his phone provisioned for months.... unless they changed it in the system, doubtful it should still work..I think he has someone using his phone at night for inet or something is not exposed in this story.

On the basics of the meg usage , I have seen others here use well over 10meg a day for a month and never recieve a notice, me included... best get a lawyer.

If this is possible, then couldn't a family using a shared minutes plan just program both phones with the same username/password and only pay for one vision account?

[SeannyD]

Doesn't the phone itself log vision data? If his phone said that he only used X amount of data and it turned out that number was significantly less than what he was being charged for, wouldn't that somewhat prove his case?

[dboogie2288]

Doesn't the phone itself log vision data? If his phone said that he only used X amount of data and it turned out that number was significantly less than what he was being charged for, wouldn't that somewhat prove his case?

That's a really good point...wonder if the OP has checked ##786 on his phone...

[Costcolio]

Kirstin (kre) you should also contact this agency in your state. They should be able to assist you.

http://consumer-affairs.co.la.ca.us/Sub/ConsumerPro.htm

[dumwaldo]

does the phones data counter keep track of data used through #777?

the data counter is mysteriously missing from the G1000 and #777 is the only way a G can connect to vision so right about now i am thinking that the data counter might not track a data call to #777.

just thoughts here,
dumwaldo

[dboogie2288]

does the phones data counter keep track of data used through #777?

the data counter is mysteriously missing from the G1000 and #777 is the only way a G can connect to vision so right about now i am thinking that the data counter might not track a data call to #777.

just thoughts here,
dumwaldo

I believe it does, I used to use my 4900 to connect while I was at work, and the counter just kept rising. So I think it does in fact include your modem usage.

[Ti-maniac]

i have two pcs phones both vision, and have tried to swap user names just to test ... never works, your username is linked to ESN.


Not true, I routinely log in using my son's phone and my login and password data. I do this because he has better reception than my phone, and when he is around I like to borrow it. All someone has to do is hack your user name and password.

[The 8]

Doesn't the phone itself log vision data? If his phone said that he only used X amount of data and it turned out that number was significantly less than what he was being charged for, wouldn't that somewhat prove his case?


i think seanny is on the right track... take the phone into a sprint store and show the data usage to a manager!!

[Ti-maniac]

i think seanny is on the right track... take the phone into a sprint store and show the data usage to a manager!!

Not the case. The phone only logs, or at least mine only logs, the actual VISION usage from the phone, not when you have it connected to a lap top or computer, but generated from WAP or email generated on the phone itself.

[plik]

i think seanny is on the right track... take the phone into a sprint store and show the data usage to a manager!!

Store managers don't have the authority to credit $2600. It'd have to go through the District Manager, then the Area Retail Director.

Going through the chain of command could take some time, but it is a good start.

[kre]

Thanks again for all of the replies. Since Sprint turned off the Vision on my phone, I can't access my browser history or anything else. How would I check data usage logged on my phone? I don't know much about Vision since I never use it. I took the phone to a Sprint store and they didn't really tell me much, but I suspect that they didn't really know what they were doing. Sprint said that all of the downloads were coming from my phone so if my phone doesn't show the data downloads, then that would definitely prove my case.

[plik]

Thanks again for all of the replies. Since Sprint turned off the Vision on my phone, I can't access my browser history or anything else. How would I check data usage logged on my phone? I don't know much about Vision since I never use it. I took the phone to a Sprint store and they didn't really tell me much, but I suspect that they didn't really know what they were doing. Sprint said that all of the downloads were coming from my phone so if my phone doesn't show the data downloads, then that would definitely prove my case.

##786 > Menu > Save Phone #

Should come up with a life timer for voice calls and list the total MB of data.

[Xbattery]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and my problems with Sprint. According to Sprint, I currently owe them $2600 for PCS Vision Usage. I found out on March 7 when I received the bill in the mail. I immediately called customer service and had the Internet shut off completely from my phone and tried to figure out what happened. Over the next several weeks and countless conversations with every department, I found out that my phone was being used as a modem. Every few days huge downloads (up to 4 mb) were taking place. All of the usage took place between midnight & 6 a.m. when I am asleep. I have never used the phone as a modem and do not have the cables to do it or the know how. I have DSL at my home and office so there is no need for me to use the phone as a modem. I talked to the fraud department and all they had to say is that it is impossible to clone for vision. So after a month and a half of talking to countless representatives and getting the runaround, I am out of options. A few of the reps said that it is possible to clone for vision, it is just VERY difficult to do. So I do not know what to think, but all I can say is that I did not use the phone as a modem and anything is possible with technology. I think I am going to have to take legal action to get this matter resolved, but I wanted to see if anyone has any advice or if anyone has even heard of this type of thing before.

Thanks.
Have you ever lent your phone to someone who owns a pc/laptop. If youre familiar with Bitpim youll know that there is a feature that could back up your phones file system into a <80k file. Vision + Readylink usernames + passwords are visible in this file. Secondly if you have a sanyo phone and someone you showed the phone to knew the ##data code, they could copy down that info as well and use it.

What does not seem consistent is the fact that sprint would know what phone number the vision usage came from. Thats the only way that you could log into vision anyway...using a spcs phone. Also ip addresses for phones are different as youll see in the setting menu.

I hope that this is not a trend going on.....hearing stuff like this makes me want to terminate my service and stick with vz

[kre]

I did the ##786 and it said that I have used 443K, hardly the 70 million bytes they told me I used. If I was using the phone as a modem, the phone would record the data from that, right?

Also, to my knowledge, no one has had access to my cell phone so I don't know who has my password, but it can't be from anyone I know. I have my phone with me at all times.

[Xbattery]

I did the ##786 and it said that I have used 443K, hardly the 70 million bytes they told me I used. If I was using the phone as a modem, the phone would record the data from that, right?

Also, to my knowledge, no one has had access to my cell phone so I don't know who has my password, but it can't be from anyone I know. I have my phone with me at all times.

Id first mark a comaplaint with the BBB, Call SPCS again and record the conversation ( chances are theyll tell you the same thing or the rep will be rude and nasty ). With that convo on tape or cd go get an attorney . To further your knowledge as to how this could have happened check out the posts in the "Underground PCS forum" on this site.

Since you have dsl you have no need for a connection to vision because dsl is faster anyway...and there is no limitation.

As soon as the situation progresses please keep us informed as to whats happening legaly. If all of this is true ( not calling you a liar, in case you are wondering ) you might want to sue spcs for legal costs so you dont loose money anyway.

[cferd]

I did the ##786 and it said that I have used 443K, hardly the 70 million bytes they told me I used. If I was using the phone as a modem, the phone would record the data from that, right?

Also, to my knowledge, no one has had access to my cell phone so I don't know who has my password, but it can't be from anyone I know. I have my phone with me at all times.


Nothing they're apparently telling you seems to make sense. Based on their own number (70M), worse case scenario would have you owe $1400.

Best case? $8.83

[kre]

I'm not sure what the total data usage is. I was told it is 70 million bytes for the first billing cycle that I was billed $854 for. I was billed $1823 for the second billing cycle but I have no idea how much data I supposedly used for the second month.

I called Sprint once again and told them that I checked the data usage on my phone which does not agree with what they are charging me and they just said that the charges are valid and I have to pay my bill and there is no one else I can talk to.

That was enough for me. I am suing Sprint b/c they are outright lying to me by saying you cannot use someone else's username and password for Vision. Also, why didn't they tell me how to check data usage?

Fortunately, I have a family friend who happens to be a great lawyer and he is going to handle this for me for free. I'll keep everyone posted on what happens...

[Costcolio]

Glad to hear. It sounds like your phone is evidence. Keep us updated.

[cferd]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 95; PalmSource; Blazer 3.0) 16;160x160)

Excuse me for my ignorance, but I think I missed something. Why didn't you take action after the first bill?

[kre]

well by the time I received the first bill in the mail it was already two weeks into the next billing cycle. The $1800 is just for the first two weeks of the billing cycle! I can't imagine what it would have been had I not put a stop to it...

[acunn1]

yes keep us informed. We don't need bs charges showing up on our bills and taking months to resolve

[freshmeat]

I'm not sure what the total data usage is. I was told it is 70 million bytes for the first billing cycle that I was billed $854 for. I was billed $1823 for the second billing cycle but I have no idea how much data I supposedly used for the second month.

I called Sprint once again and told them that I checked the data usage on my phone which does not agree with what they are charging me and they just said that the charges are valid and I have to pay my bill and there is no one else I can talk to.

That was enough for me. I am suing Sprint b/c they are outright lying to me by saying you cannot use someone else's username and password for Vision. Also, why didn't they tell me how to check data usage?

Fortunately, I have a family friend who happens to be a great lawyer and he is going to handle this for me for free. I'll keep everyone posted on what happens...

You cannot do crap about the name swap on the phone, that is against the TOS, so they can say it can be done, but it would be bad , lol hmmm think about this a minute...

as for my unit , used since 11-07-2003 7693 calls over 10k in minutes used...
762mb used ....:) I think you are just getting a raw shafting. a liar , err lawyer would be you best bet.

[pixelpusher]

That was enough for me. I am suing Sprint b/c they are outright lying to me by saying you cannot use someone else's username and password for Vision. Also, why didn't they tell me how to check data usage?

Fortunately, I have a family friend who happens to be a great lawyer and he is going to handle this for me for free. I'll keep everyone posted on what happens...

look, you really dont need to waste time with somekinda actual suit. A letter from a lawyer, or from somebody merely saying they are, might resolve this, but you likely dont need to go that far. I tried to keep up with this thread over the past few days and I don't think that I saw any mention of you trying to resolve this thru Executive Services...thats really where people with legitimate problems that can't be addressed at the store level should turn. The phone # is in the FAQ...

[kre]

Ok, thanks. I will call Executive Services tomorrow and see if I get anywhere.

[madscribe]

Ok, thanks. I will call Executive Services tomorrow and see if I get anywhere.

can / will they tell you where the line that used all this data was working from? Geography might be a way to narrow this down some. It's sure apparent from your ##RUN that the phone you have didn't move all that data --- so finding out where the "other" phone is should be a pretty good clue who's had your un / pw.

Just a thot.

[Costcolio]

kre, I hope executive services can help you. However, if you have access to an attorney for free, use it. You are talking about alot of money and your credit. Cover all the bases on this one.

[StevenJW]

Doesn't Sprint have a fraud department. It sounds like you are stuck talking with the billing department. I would see if I could them to look past the outstanding bill long enough to hear you say the bill is not yours. If you can do that, maybe they can find who/how/where the data went.

[Xbattery]

Most of the reps over the phones are not trained to handle such calls or know where to route someone in the event of fraud. The minute any lawyer speaks to someone in the higher offices they are more than eager to rectify the situation.

Id like to hear an update as to whats happening so far

[sneak]

Fraud Department
1-888-788-0788

Executive Services
1-866-519-5698
1-888-347-8988
1-817-215-3070

Thanks to Hat's sprintpcsinfo.com for those numbers.

[winger]

Not the case. The phone only logs, or at least mine only logs, the actual VISION usage from the phone, not when you have it connected to a lap top or computer, but generated from WAP or email generated on the phone itself.I have tethered with four different phone models w/ spcs and each time, I can attest to the fact that #777 usage is logged by the ##786 data counter.

BTW, are you sure you don't have a savy toddler sitting around the house who loves surfing SU using your laptop and a 'Vision-cloned' phone in the wee hours? LOL

[pixelpusher]

Fraud Department
1-888-788-0788

Executive Services
1-866-519-5698
1-888-347-8988
1-817-215-3070

Thanks to Hat's sprintpcsinfo.com for those numbers.


ummm, or the Sprintusers FAQ where they came from in the first place!

heh.

[sneak]

ummm, or the Sprintusers FAQ where they came from in the first place!

heh.

Once again, wasn't here for the whole Hat scandle, but I'll take your word on it :)

[just visiting]

I promise you they can and will. all they have to do is go into the system and take IP basic off your plan. Dont try to say that IP isn't on your plan, it is on anyone with a vision capable device. With that, your username and vision password are gone. You cannot get past the AAA server with out it.




did you have a unlimited vision pack on that phone?

if you did then sprint absolutely can not charge you for the usage. all they have the legal right to do is turn off your service. they do NOT have the right to charge you a per KB rate if you had an unlimited vision pack.

BTW
it is not possible for sprint to turn off the internet on your phone. all sprint can do is turn off the unlimited service. the only way to turn off the internet service on a phone is to do it in the phones settings and disable vision.

so did you have an unlimited vision pack before?

peace,
dumwaldo

[kre]

I did talk to the fraud dept. They talked to me for two minutes. I explained my situation and all they had to say is that you absolutely cannot clone for vision or use someone else's vision account on your phone so they are not going to look into the matter.

All that Sprint told me regarding the geography of the downloads is that they were downloading to my phone. Do they know where the phone is at the time of a download?

My lawyer friend said not to call executive services b/c he wants to write a letter himself. He wants me to find other people who have been a victim of Vision fraud. Does anyone know of another case like mine where someone else was using their vision account fraudulently?

Thanks so much for the help.

[madscribe]

I did talk to the fraud dept. They talked to me for two minutes. I explained my situation and all they had to say is that you absolutely cannot clone for vision or use someone else's vision account on your phone so they are not going to look into the matter.

All that Sprint told me regarding the geography of the downloads is that they were downloading to my phone. Do they know where the phone is at the time of a download?

My lawyer friend said not to call executive services b/c he wants to write a letter himself. He wants me to find other people who have been a victim of Vision fraud. Does anyone know of another case like mine where someone else was using their vision account fraudulently?

Thanks so much for the help.

Glad to see that the fraud department is so helpful --- sheesh.

Sure they now where your phone is, and they also know where the 70 megs of data was served to. Seems odd that they couldn't / wouldn't tell you where the data served to.

Out of curiosity is your service still on? If so how'd that work out?

I'm not sure I agree with your lawyer pal, but that's just me. I'd let ES know that you're willing to take it all the way, and that any info you're asking for is nothing compaired to what he'll be asking for.

Good luck!!

[dboogie2288]

I'd let ES know that you're willing to take it all the way, and that any info you're asking for is nothing compaired to what he'll be asking for.


"Pain and suffering, degradation of character."

heheeh....although dealing with CS is kind of like pain and suffering......

[kre]

My phone service is still on although they recently sent me a letter from Collections saying that if I don't pay, they will turn it off. I have sent in a check for my phone service and the taxes for the past two bills along with a letter explaining that I am disputing the Vision charges. Legally they are not allowed to turn off my phone if I am disputing charges, although they are threatening to.

Believe me, I have been going through a ton pain and suffering, not to mention wasting hours of my time trying to resolve this! My lawyer does not think I can get any money from sprint for my troubles, just a credit, which is definitely better than nothing, although unfair.

[Costcolio]

Let your lawyer handle matters from here. No more calls to anyone at Sprint.

BTW, here is a thread from someone with fraud problems and Sprint. You might want to contact them and pass it along to your attorney.

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353351

[falconey]

I guess my one question is Account Spending Limit, where the heck was it and why didn't it kick in. I thought everyone had a spending limit regardless of credit worthiness. Also I'm wondering how sprint doesn't detect this as fraudulent activity. If this same type of scenario occured with a credit card that company would contact you to make sure the charges are indeed real and true before allowing outragous amounts to keep building up. Maybe someone else can shed light on this, because this whole thread has me confused. People are saying vision can be cloned while sprint keeps telling this guy there's no way. ???????????

[freshmeat]

I did talk to the fraud dept. They talked to me for two minutes. I explained my situation and all they had to say is that you absolutely cannot clone for vision or use someone else's vision account on your phone so they are not going to look into the matter.

All that Sprint told me regarding the geography of the downloads is that they were downloading to my phone. Do they know where the phone is at the time of a download?

My lawyer friend said not to call executive services b/c he wants to write a letter himself. He wants me to find other people who have been a victim of Vision fraud. Does anyone know of another case like mine where someone else was using their vision account fraudulently?

Thanks so much for the help.


Wow cannot clone vision into another handset? hmmm well I have 3 vision phones here all with my user and pass and all three will log on just fine... mind you only one will make a call , and that one is the one with my proper ESN :) ,, I think the engineering staff at sprint is smoking crack. or sniffing each others ... either way it can and was done... will they admit this sercurity flaw? NO!

If it has a lock it can be broken or fooled...
A lock was made to keep a person honest, NOT out, if they want in , they will find a way...

Kinda reminds me of snarfing analog roamers way back when ...
ohhh my I am that old?

[kre]

I think Sprint knows that vision can be cloned, they just don't want to admit it to me because they want me to pay the $2600. I have no idea why my account was not flagged when the charges got so high. They just told me it is because my credit rating is so high. They will not even admit to me that there is a possibility that there is fraudulent activity going on with my account, even if it does not make sense that I would do this. They just keep telling me that the charges are valid and I have to pay the bill.

Again, has anyone ever heard of this happening to someone before? Also, has anyone ever been overcharged by Sprint due to fraud or Sprint error?

[funkxl]

Dude you gotta keep in touch and let us all know what happens. Don't Let sprint pull a fast one on you!

[cferd]

I think Sprint knows that vision can be cloned, they just don't want to admit it to me because they want me to pay the $2600. I have no idea why my account was not flagged when the charges got so high. They just told me it is because my credit rating is so high. They will not even admit to me that there is a possibility that there is fraudulent activity going on with my account, even if it does not make sense that I would do this. They just keep telling me that the charges are valid and I have to pay the bill.

Again, has anyone ever heard of this happening to someone before? Also, has anyone ever been overcharged by Sprint due to fraud or Sprint error?

For as long as I've been with Sprint, about 5 years, all the charges I've questioned have either been justified or been taken off.

In fact on a few occasions, they've credited the account more than they should have.

But there's never been anything on my bill comparable (money wise) to what you're going through.

[kre]

UPDATE......

Sprint turned off my phone. My letter sent a letter on Monday but Sprint has not yet received it. When my phone was turned off I called Executive Services and tried to explain that legally they cannot shut off my service if I am disputing my bill. Plus, I have sent in payments for my cell phone service, just not the Vision service. Exec. Services "researched" the matter and called me back and said that because this has never happened to anyone before, they cannot drop the charges b/c they have no justification for it.

They are not listening to me when I tell them that my phone has no history of the downloaded data. So hopefully once they recieve my lawyers letter, they will credit my account rather than deal with the hassle. If not, it looks like I am suing. I am going to get a Verizon cell phone today b/c my business depends on my cell phone and there is no hope of Sprint turning mine back on, even though they are breaking the law by turning it off.

I thought for sure that exec. services would help me, but it looks like they are lying to me too about vision fraud...

[Maokh]

Have you contacted the FCC regarding this matter? SprintPCS will have 30 days to respond to them, or else they default on the matter.

Since it is not real money until you "settle" with the carrier (ie, pay them hard cash), i dont see how suing would resolve this unless you have any damages from this episode. I'd go the lawyer route after exhausting this resource. A letter to "scare" them into settling the matter can work ... especially with their legal costs involved. Paying $5 for each dollar received in payment (if they win) isn't exactly in Sprint's best interest.

I had an interesting billing dispute with TMobile, similar to yours. They were billing random long distance calls to a phone i had. (almost like these vision data charges) the sim was even deactived (due to non-payment of these long distance charges), and the bills continued to roll in. Eventually it added up to over $1200 in charges. I could have sworn the sim was either cloned, or a serious billing error was at work.

I filled out the FCC form, and they contacted TMobile. They did not respond to the FCC notice within 30 days (defaulted), which the FCC then ordered them to:

a) cancel out the entire bill and all charges (which ended up being several months of actual unrelated access fees)
b) removal of bad mark on g/f's credit
c) $500 cash for her trouble

She more than broke even for her year's cellular service, and the legal service was enitrely free.

These asses claim that they were not even regulated by the FCC and had no "dispute" process, giving her the run around. But the feds nailed them in the end.

[Shyne]

Have you contacted the FCC regarding this matter? SprintPCS will have 30 days to respond to them, or else they default on the matter.

Since it is not real money until you "settle" with the carrier (ie, pay them hard cash), i dont see how suing would resolve this unless you have any damages from this episode. I'd go the lawyer route after exhausting this resource. A letter to "scare" them into settling the matter can work ... especially with their legal costs involved. Paying $5 for each dollar received in payment (if they win) isn't exactly in Sprint's best interest.

I had an interesting billing dispute with TMobile, similar to yours. They were billing random long distance calls to a phone i had. (almost like these vision data charges) the sim was even deactived (due to non-payment of these long distance charges), and the bills continued to roll in. Eventually it added up to over $1200 in charges. I could have sworn the sim was either cloned, or a serious billing error was at work.

I filled out the FCC form, and they contacted TMobile. They did not respond to the FCC notice within 30 days (defaulted), which the FCC then ordered them to:

a) cancel out the entire bill and all charges (which ended up being several months of actual unrelated access fees)
b) removal of bad mark on g/f's credit
c) $500 cash for her trouble

She more than broke even for her year's cellular service, and the legal service was enitrely free.

These asses claim that they were not even regulated by the FCC and had no "dispute" process, giving her the run around. But the feds nailed them in the end.

Where do I get an FCC form?

[Maokh]

This is the electronic version of form 475:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm

Try to be as complete as possible when filing. The more information you arm the FCC with, the more effective the resolution will be. These guys are on our side :D

Of course, the carriers have to comply with whatever resolution (if any) is determined by the FCC. If they do not comply, they get their licenses yanked.

[kre]

MAJOR UPDATE!!!!

I have been talking to a guy in exec. services all week and yesterday he called me and told me that he found out what has been going on with my account. Back in October I traded my phone in at Best Buy under their replacement plan and apparently Best Buy did not reset the phone so all of the vision charges were coming from the person who now owns my old phone (I didn't know that Best Buy sells used phones). Why it took two months and a letter from a lawyer to figure this out, I don't know. Sprint kept telling me that all of the downloads went to my specific phone b/c each phone has it's own IP address, but that is obviously a lie.

They shut off my phone last Thursday, they found out yesterday that all of this wasn't my fault, and my phone is still turned off. They said that it will take 3-4 bus. days to get it turned back on. I don't know how that is even legal when they were not allowed to turn off the phone in the first place since I was disputing the charges. And now that they know I didn't do this, they still won't turn my phone back on.

I filed a complaint with the FCC and I am going to file one with Best Buy too. I have gone through hell over the past 2.5 months and Sprint shouldn't get off so easy. Had they investigated when I discovered the charges, they could have figured this out a lot sooner. I think it's pretty shady that they waited to look into the matter until they received a letter from a lawyer.

I'll keep you posted on what happens with my complaint to the FCC. Thanks Maokh for that suggestion! I hadn't even thought about it!

[dboogie2288]

MAJOR UPDATE!!!!

I have been talking to a guy in exec. services all week and yesterday he called me and told me that he found out what has been going on with my account. Back in October I traded my phone in at Best Buy under their replacement plan and apparently Best Buy did not reset the phone so all of the vision charges were coming from the person who now owns my old phone (I didn't know that Best Buy sells used phones). Why it took two months and a letter from a lawyer to figure this out, I don't know. Sprint kept telling me that all of the downloads went to my specific phone b/c each phone has it's own IP address, but that is obviously a lie.

They shut off my phone last Thursday, they found out yesterday that all of this wasn't my fault, and my phone is still turned off. They said that it will take 3-4 bus. days to get it turned back on. I don't know how that is even legal when they were not allowed to turn off the phone in the first place since I was disputing the charges. And now that they know I didn't do this, they still won't turn my phone back on.

I filed a complaint with the FCC and I am going to file one with Best Buy too. I have gone through hell over the past 2.5 months and Sprint shouldn't get off so easy. Had they investigated when I discovered the charges, they could have figured this out a lot sooner. I think it's pretty shady that they waited to look into the matter until they received a letter from a lawyer.

I'll keep you posted on what happens with my complaint to the FCC. Thanks Maokh for that suggestion! I hadn't even thought about it!

Whew, thanks for the update..interesting stuff.

Normally, best buy won't resell an open phone. Whether that BBY overlooked it or whatever, it's their policy to send phone directly back to the manufacturer for this specfic reason, and voice calls as well of course. Good luck in your ventures...

[pdx77]

Wow, well I'm glad that they finally figured out what was wrong with your account. With all the bs you had to go through, did they offer you anything?

(awaits sneak16 to hear him stand up for BB)

[jjtricket]

Best Buy sells open box phones all the time. Yet another good reason to have your msl code so you can delete all data from your phone before you part with it.

[pdx77]

Best Buy sells open box phones all the time. Yet another good reason to have your msl code so you can delete all data from your phone before you part with it.
What's sad is that when you ask them that question, they will always tell you that everything is new.

[dumwaldo]

kre,

good to hear you finally have things worked out with sprint, however, if i were in your position i would not let sprint off the hook so easy. i am a pretty strong proponant of not trying to take advantage of sprint and not asking for stuff you are not entitled to but in your case i think you are entitled to a bit more that just having your service restored.

i would call sprint executive services and ask them how many months of free service they are planning on giving you to compensate for your time, effort, and legal costs that they caused or should you just allow your lawyer to go ahead with a lawsuit for the blatent lies they told in an attempt to defraud you out of a large sum of money.

peace,
dumwaldo

[Wuss912]

i would call sprint executive services and ask them how many months of free service they are planning on giving you to compensate for your time, effort, and legal costs that they caused or should you just allow your lawyer to go ahead with a lawsuit for the blatent lies they told in an attempt to defraud you out of a large sum of money.

peace,
dumwaldo
or better yet have the lawyer write the letter and send it in...

[kre]

Yeah, I agree. So far, Sprint has offered me nothing and my phone is still turned off...

I am hoping that the FCC will step in for me, but I am going to talk to my lawyer about what I can do, as well as the guy I am dealing with in exec. services. They should compensate me for all of my troubles. It took them 2 months to figure this out b/c they didn't really investigate until I got a lawyer. They may have even known the whole time and were lying to me. I wouldn't put that past them.

Thanks for all of your comments of support! I'll keep you updated!

[ChrisNYC69]

I agree with some people here, don't let sprint off the hook so easily... You should get compensated for your 2 months of emotional distress :p and for turning off your phone... But on a serious note, do continue your case to court so that next time, sprint will be more responsible and actually try to solve the matter before having to go to a lawyer... idiots..

Chris

I guess business is all about $$$ and not customer satisfaction! :huh:

[Maokh]

Whats even more interesting is how nasty Sprint can be on per kilobyte charges.

Charging hundreds or thousands of dollars for a couple of megabytes is price gouging, especially when the handsets on their $15 "unlimited data plan" send many times more each and every month.

Dont let them scare you, i average about 2-4 "million bytes" (aka megabyte) of Vision on my handset surfing WAP sites and sending pictures. Its not a whole lot of data and does not consume many resources -- especially since the pipe is very big.

[Bilson]

Doesn't Sprint shut you down if you go over your credit limit? Or doesn't everyone have a credit limit? If not, seems that Sprint would be at fault for some of the bill. Anyone running a charge like $1800.00 has to trigger a flag for someone to see.

[Sugarfoot]

Its good to see they figured out the mess. If you want to go after Best Buy you need to go to the Federal Trade Commission instead of the FCC. Its funny how they say you cant use your phone as a modem as their download section for my Treo provides software to use the Treo as a modem for a laptop. Here is a line from the user manual for the software:

SprintPCSWireless Web ConnectionSM allows you to
use your SprintPCSPhoneTM in place of a computer
modem. Whatever you’ve done with a modem before,
you can now do with your SprintPCSPhone.

I have unlimited Vision plan, so maybe that is the difference in options.

[Maokh]

...or at many of SprintPCS's authorized dealers, connection cables are sold right next to the phones -- and in some cases -- the sales reps will try to package them in the activation!

[fonpirate]

just radio shack

[tex1171]

So whats happening with Sprint. Are they going to do anything for you? Let us know.

[Maokh]

Radioshack, Frys, CompUSA ...

[SLDNchick]

Doesn't Sprint shut you down if you go over your credit limit? Or doesn't everyone have a credit limit? If not, seems that Sprint would be at fault for some of the bill. Anyone running a charge like $1800.00 has to trigger a flag for someone to see.

You would think so huh? Actually, everyone has a $600 spending limit when the account is activated (new thing, last few months). After sixty days of on-time payment history, the block is removed. This is their fraud check spending limit.
I've heard about the cloning thing before, though with calls. My grandfather's number got cloned in NM. Cingular called him and asked if he knew anyone in Mexico, and when he told them no they discussed getting a new phone for him since it seemed obvious to them that it was not normal usage for him. It would make me feel a lot better if Sprint did stuff like that.

It still seems kind of silly to me, if someone is approved for 10 lines, which is what AA class credit is, they could easily go over their spending limit and get their phones hotlined just by having bought phones to start the account. It's been a big pain for us since we have to figure out whether or not the customer could be pro-rated enough to hit their spending limits as soon as the order is placed.

[winger]

Whats even more interesting is how nasty Sprint can be on per kilobyte charges.

Charging hundreds or thousands of dollars for a couple of megabytes is price gouging, especially when the handsets on their $15 "unlimited data plan" send many times more each and every month.

....i am on vacation so I just 'borrowed' a card and just today alone working on syncing up my website have already hit 25MB upload and 10MB download...and still going. If I were just surfing the net on vaca, I typically hit about 10MB ttl (up/down) per day.

[Maokh]

I bought a vision card last month... ive average about 40 megs / day. I assume that since i am paying $80/mo, its honestly unlimited. Ill be doing a gig or two a month at the very least.

[murphyrulez]

When I bought my 3 VM4500's at Best Buy 2 weeks ago, they activated them in the store, and 3 of the 6 phones they pulled out of their stock were already in use when they tried to activate the ESN. Not sure how that could be...

[RavenTBK]

kre - Whats the current status of this mess? Its been two months.. something should've happened by now.

[Maokh]

I suspect his silence on this thread indicates the problem was solved.

[lop367]

but only you have to wait...... to next victim to show up... and what will happen if this new vision 2 or new technology..... bring more problems than overuse or fraud... like history have tell there will be good start and a bad end. :(

[Sandiegodude]

Wirelessly posted (Vm 4050: VM4050/132.037 UP.Browser/6.2.2.4.e.1.100 (GUI) MMP/2.0)

I'm really interested in the ending to the story. Can someone pm him?

[mcurtiss1970]

Wirelessly posted (Vm 4050: VM4050/132.037 UP.Browser/6.2.2.4.e.1.100 (GUI) MMP/2.0)

I'm really interested in the ending to the story. Can someone pm him?
He hasn't posted since May. I'd say let it go.

[rjsommer]

Wait a second. Are you suggesting that if I sell a phone and have my service transfered to a new handset someone can access my vision username and pw from the old handset? That doesn't sound right. I'm not saying I disagree with you but I would think that would be a huge gaping security hole with Vision. It just wouldn't make sense since activating the used handsest would register the new user's vision login name right? What am I missing here? I've sold at least 5 handsets on eBay and now you've got me worried. How would the old handset divulge your pw to the new user?

This is why I got my MSL codes to erase any account info in a phone b4 I sell it. Been there done that.

[pixelpusher]

It doesn't 'divulge' it. However, if it isn't cleared out then you can still access Vision services under the old account.

If you have an old phone you can see for yourself, just program it with your Vision username and password. Surf away.

[rjsommer]

That's odd. So you need the msl to clear it out or can you do it through the regular menu options?



It doesn't 'divulge' it. However, if it isn't cleared out then you can still access Vision services under the old account.

If you have an old phone you can see for yourself, just program it with your Vision username and password. Surf away.

[KevinS281]

First time I read this post but I knew what the problem was the second that I read it ... he had his phone swapped out or he sold it and didn't clear out the vision username or password ... at Sprint stores we must do a master clear on all vision phones to make sure this sort of things don't happen ... I don't know how the third party retailer operate but they need to do it too ... if you sell a phone please take it to a sprint store and ask them to "refurbish" it ... if you lose a phone immediately change your visino username and password ... if he would of come into my store I would of had this resolved within the hour probably

Kevin

[KevinS281]

That's odd. So you need the msl to clear it out or can you do it through the regular menu options?

Yes you will need the MSL ... it's ##786 (sometime an extra #) then look for a reset default option ... then you enter the MSL ... this is the same thing as a sprint tech doing an over the wire refurbish on the phone

Kevin

[madman34]

Greetings all,
Sorry it took me so long to find this thread, and actually it was while looking for somthing else. I am a systems engineer with Nortel Networks and my job is to impliment the PDSN (Packet Data Service Node), AAA server (with Sprint IT department rep) and all data services related to Sprnt, Verizon, and affilliate carriers and roaming partners who use Nortel equipment, which is most of them. As I provision this equipment please trust me in that I am qualified to speak of it and it's security flaws.

The PDSN holds policies and profiles for customer groupes. Access privilages for groupes of number ranges and such. Basically anything data is handled by the PDSN (Shasta 5000) soon to be replaced with a Sterant device. There are 2 PDSN's at each customer location, one being provisioned as a FA (Forign agent) and one provisioned as a HA (home agent) thus enableing a service called Mobile IP, so that someone with vision service in one MTA can go to another and still use Vision services. Ok, sorry for rambling off track a little, but the AAA server is a SUN box running Solaris 9 and Nortel AAA server software and this is where authintication is done. The AAA server only validates that the MIN of the phone is valid and that the user name and password are as well. It does not query the HLR to determine if they match. Also the AAA server does not look at the FA or the HA to see if there is already a data session up for this user name and password. What this means is that not only can anyone with a valid MIN and ESN pair hijack a username and password from any other valid user, but he can use it in as many devices at the same time (concurrent data sessions) as he wants, racking up astronomical data use. This problem is known by upper managment and all technical staff of Nortel and Sprint. In fact when I go to work on data at a site I will put in a test number in my TREO600 with my own username and password from my 1xrtt card and into my 1xEVDO card and log all 3 on at the same time to test data rate under load. 1xEVDO will bring into the picture a new version of the AAA server software that has been written called AN-AAA, which cross validates the subscriber's IMSI with the user name and password, thus eliminateing this security flaw. Perhaps the known issue was not plugged long ago because everyone in power to do so did not realize how easily this flaw could be accidently triggered. I make no excuses for them and know that they knew the flaw existed (just did not tell the store people because then they themselves could hijack vision service if they were of a mind to do so), but should be held accountable for not investigating right away or at least admitting that there could be somthing wrong.


If anyone needs to know anything else about the system just e-mail me and I will be happy to help. I apologize for not comming sooner as I could have called upstairs and had this resolved very quickly as I have a good working relationship with Sprint. We even joke about just how 'in the dark' the store personell are on most important issues. I mean no offense to the good people of the stores as they do their best to understand, but they are not degreed or experienced engineers, have very little actual knowlege of their system, are not encouraged or expected to, and therefore must blindly obey what they are told by their next level of support (to which the same afore mentioned restrictions apply).

[dataman]

Hey ok I guess this thread was off for a while with the good tech info we got from MadMAn34 we now know way more than CS at sprint. ok any ways Guess WAHT!>?

I have the same probelm I got 150 $ charge on my account and then my service got cut off
I stopped my visison plan since 3 months ago... and now I see it being used while I never ever used it anymore..
no one helps me Not sprint store, neither customer care... and I wasted a day of mine speaking with them ... perhaps Madman34 could help me a bit


I have just 125 credit limit so I lost my service way faster

with knowing all these info I will call fraud department and exec. services. and I will fill up the FCC form ... thanks to our friend and all you guys for making this thread..

I will keep you guys posted
let me know any idea u might have

[fonpirate]

I have the same probelm I got 150 $ charge on my account and then my service got cut off
I stopped my visison plan since 3 months ago... and now I see it being used while I never ever used it anymore..


if you seriously did not use the vision call in and have the username removed from your acct, this will completely remove the ability to access web and basically give your phone a 2G status. Then there will be no vision charges, guaranteed.

[dataman]

hey again after a big discussion w/ CS and fruad department... no help again the Executive services phone # is not working ..does any one have any # to them?

the fruad department is telling me that I used all the MB s on my handset but Im sure it is not true... NO WAY..

b/c after having my handset since may I just used 124MB total

and they are telling me that I sued 85 MB just in august and 15 MB in first week of sep. they could not give me any more data but If avargae usage of my phone is 85 MB per month how could it be that I have only 120MB usage on my handset after 5 months...

so I guess I need to talk with Executive services.. PLEASE HELP

[xcessboost.com]

Wirelessly posted (VM4050/132.037 UP.Browser/6.2.2.4.e.1.100 (GUI) MMP/2.0)

Isn't small claims court for matters less than $500?

[dataman]

well Im charged 150$ for the vision usage but still that is a bit too much.. for a student..

I called the #s in FAQ they dont work..

any help for getting in touch with executive services...

could MADMAN34 help plz..

[dataman]

Hello

Since September 22nd 2004 I removed the Vision data plan from my Sprint PCS account with phone # (410)***-**** on Oct. 19th my service got cut off by sprint b/c of extra data usage on my account and going over my spending limit of 125$ after calling customer service they told me that my phone has been used for data usage for more than 15 MB. I disputed that charge b/c I did not use my phone for data at least since September 20th 2004. I spoke with Fraud department and they don't have the technology to tell me exactly where the data has been used or either they just don't want to help and they say it was used on my handset and I have to pay for it. I checked my handset with the code ##RTN (##786) and it tells me I used only 124MB of data on it since I activated on this account since May.. then I called Customer care and they told me they only have info available for last two months and I used 85 MB in august and 15 MB after I got my vision disconnected. there is no way that I used over 85 MB in just one month in that little phone and even if that is true... still having the phone since May for 5 months and average usage of 80 MB/per month would make the the usage well more than 300 MB of data and that does not make sense with the info I have on my phone (124MB) I told them that this whole thing shows that my vision account is being used fraudulently by some one else due to the system security holes.. and they refuse that and telling me that is impossible.. I'm 100% sure which that is doable. I confirmed it after talking with knowledgeable technician in "Nortel company" which provides the vision servers for sprint and he told me that there is a known issue with the Sprint PCS 3G vision server (AAA servers) and that is it does not check the ESN of the phone that is signing in .. and that only checks the userID and pass.. and it is very easy to clone the vision service of sprint on another phone and use it. in fact I found some people doing it for their own usage so it IS doable!
perhaps my account was being abused by some one else till now but I did not know since I had unlimited data plan, but once I removed it the charges showed up...
Sprint PCS is refusing to refund the charges from the unauthorized vision usage on my account for the total of 150US$ so I had to make some payment to restore my service. but that does not mean that I'm agree with that charge. I'm disputing it totally and I want sprint PCS to fix their security problems ASAP or at least let their Customer service know about it so they could help the people.

I saw other people having the same problem with SprintPCS.com you could look at this website for an example

"http://www.sprintusers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=448834#post448834"

Sincerely yours,
Farjad

[lgmayka]

If I understand this security hole correctly, it is potentially a significant money-loser for Sprint. A customer could pay for unlimited Vision on one line, then let all his extended family and friends use his Vision username and password on their own Sprint phones for free. If this is indeed possible, it is in Sprint's own best interest to fix this hole ASAP.

[fonpirate]

i have tried to duplicate the claims that the username and password can be used on multiple phones, and have not been able to make it work.

in any case, dataman - do like i told you, have them remove the username completely then there will be no usage, not just remove the plan, but the entire access to vision.

[madman34]

I over simplified my explaination (if you can believe that long rambling could leave anything out). Because Sprint supports Mobile IP on their network, you must also have the HA (home agent PDSN) IP address for the usernsme/password combo that you are useing, as well as the shared secret for that HA. Because this fellow who started the thread had traded in his phone, that data was also left there in his phone for the next person to use. To Dataman: I do not know how somwone got access to that data about yours unless you did a phone trade, let someone who knew what to look for get your phone for a minute, or maybe a someone with admin access to the 1x servers got your data (which could happen). So the 'hole' is there and is bad, but is only if proceedures are not followed by store personell (yes that happens) or are circumvented on purpose at a higher level. I am just 1 of the 3 engineers that makes this stuff work, the rest is political in Sprint and their customer service, so I do not know what to do about that. I may have already put myself on the road to getting fired by shareing this info;-)

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