[Pre] Will it Catch Up to the iPhone?

[AmeriKenny]

It seemed like it might, until I read this article from BusinessWeek that really dashed my hopes. :indiff:

App Store Hits 500 Million Downloads

Posted by: Peter Burrows on January 16

Apple just announced that there are 15,000 applications available at its App Store section of iTunes and that they have been downloaded a total of 500 million times. This is up from 10,000 apps and 300 million downloads just a month ago.

This is truly astounding progress, and very bad news for Apple’s smart-phone rivals. Already, the iPhone/App Store ecosystem is getting so huge relative to other smart-phone markets that some smart developers—Tapulous and Pandora, to name two particularly hot ones—have decided that there’s no point in adapting their apps for new Google’s Android OS yet (NOTE: I had originally said that these developers had not supported any other platform, but it turns out Pandora did announce support for WIndows Mobile in December. Thanks to reader Mathiastck for pointing it out.)


This is also the view of Jeff Holden, CEO of Pelago Inc. When he created the social networking company, Jeff—who by the way was a pal of Jeff Bezo’s at DE Shaw, and was a member of the core team that built Amazon.com—fully intended to follow the conventional wisdom for how to build a sizeable, fast-growing software company: get your apps on as many platforms and devices as possible. But late last year, he crunched the numbers and came to a shocking conclusion: that the 13 million owners of iPhone owners had already downloaded as much software as—are you sitting down—1.1 billion other cell-phone owners. (FYI, he’s assuming that 25% of non-iPhone owners download anything at all, and that they download 2.5 apps on average). Now, using projected Q4 iPhone sales and Apple’s new download data, 17 million iPhone owners have downloaded as much software at 1.6 billion other cellphone owners! “Why would I ever build for anything but the iPhone,” he says.

UPDATE: In an e-mail today, he explained the reasoning based on the newest data from Apple:

To a developer, what this means is that if he launches an app for non-iPhones (assuming he has deals with all carriers and has ported to every handset in distribution on which people can download apps), he needs to have a reach 94 times as large as the reach he needs in the iPhone community (which does not require any carrier deals and is via single platform, so no porting) to achieve the same number of downloads. In other words, the 13MM iPhone audience is equivalent to 13MM * 94 = 1.6 *billion* non-iPhones. Of course, we know there are only 250MM non-iPhones in the U.S., so there is no way to achieve the same effective reach inside the U.S.

The implications for Apple are potentially monumental, as well. As we pointed out in our story on the App Store this week , many of my sources say they see little obstacles to slow Apple’s assault on the smart-phone market (it’s share has gone from zippo eighteen months ago to No. 2 in the third quarter, the most recent data available). These sources, which include various market researchers, a former telecom industry CEO and a number of software developers who built their companies writing for Symbian, Microsoft and RIM, see no reason why Apple couldn’t win up to 40% of this lucrative market, and 20% of the overall $187 billion cell-phone business.

Such predictions would have been totally unthinkable even six months ago—and it’s got far more to do with the App Store than all the iPhone stories would suggest. Sure, having the coolest gadget is important to winning in the mobile device business. But cool gadgets come and go (Just ask Motorola, about its Razr). Indeed, analysts think iPhone sales fell significantly in the fourth quarter from the previous one, when the economy was healthier and consumers were snapping up the brand new iPhone 3G.

But if the App Store becomes the place shoppers go to get the most, and the best, software, Apple may well have a platform of historic power on its hands. “The one with the most apps wins,” says the former telecom CEO. “The most important thing with Apple isn’t the iPhone. It’s the App Store.”



Here's the source (http://blogs.businessweek.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/13020.1361712596)

[ScrapMaker]

The Pre will never catch up to the iPhone... because of one thing.

Marketing.

Apple has convinced their loyal subordinates that anything they make is god-like, and they gobble it up like starving children in Africa.

Seriously, just like the MadTV skit, they could make an iLamp, or iDesk, or whatever the F-ing hell they wanted, and their loyalists would buy it for 10 times the price of any competitor.

I liken it to the people who like Bose.

Maybe Apple should merge with Bose, then they can combine their powers of misconception...

[jschu22]

The Pre will never catch up to the iPhone... because of one thing.

Marketing.

Apple has convinced their loyal subordinates that anything they make is god-like, and they gobble it up like starving children in Africa.

Seriously, just like the MadTV skit, they could make an iLamp, or iDesk, or whatever the F-ing hell they wanted, and their loyalists would buy it for 10 times the price of any competitor.

I liken it to the people who like Bose.

Maybe Apple should merge with Bose, then they can combine their powers of misconception...

Try REALLY using their products before you dismiss them. I'm not saying they are the best, but to say its all smoke and mirrors is an insult to the intelligence of many.

[Jspired]

Try REALLY using their products before you dismiss them. I'm not saying they are the best, but to say its all smoke and mirrors is an insult to the intelligence of many.

I agree. Right now, everything with the Pre is speculation. The iPhone hit a target market. The Pre will too, but they won't necessarily be the same market..and that's OK.

[ScrapMaker]

Try REALLY using their products before you dismiss them. I'm not saying they are the best, but to say its all smoke and mirrors is an insult to the intelligence of many.

They aren't terrible products---but they are, for the price.

That's what it boils down to. Both Apple and Bose make decent products, but not for the double/triple/quadruple pricetag.

Their marketing machines have convinced their users that they are worth it, and is also a reason why Apple sues anyone that tries to make a modern Mac clone. People would soon realize that they can enjoy OSX on non-overprice Apple hardware, and that's where they make their money--the hardware.

The iPhone is great hardware, once again, but was severly overpriced in the beginning, and also Apple love to control everything their users do, hence the sneaky/corrupted App Store approval system.

So yeah, they have some pretty nice stuff, but it's like selling someone a $50 vacuum for $500, because of a name.

I've used the iPhone, and several other Apple products over the years... and I can't say I came away overly impressed. Most of the people who own them just don't care what computer they had--or it looked pretty--or whatever.

[jschu22]

I agree. Right now, everything with the Pre is speculation. The iPhone hit a target market. The Pre will too, but they won't necessarily be the same market..and that's OK.

Exactly. It's a shame that so often it has to be "If youre not with us, youre against us". I dont understand why so many people choose to plant their flag with one option and thus make all other options inferior. In reality it's not the companies that this create- it's their users. I know thats not everyone but it happens all too often, and if youre saying to yourself "You are wrong, I dont do that!" ask yourself why you might be perceived as doing that.

[Jspired]

Exactly. It's a shame that so often it has to be "If youre not with us, youre against us"..

Very well said!

[jschu22]

They aren't terrible products---but they are, for the price.

That's what it boils down to. Both Apple and Bose make decent products, but not for the double/triple/quadruple pricetag.

Their marketing machines have convinced their users that they are worth it, and is also a reason why Apple sues anyone that tries to make a modern Mac clone. People would soon realize that they can enjoy OSX on non-overprice Apple hardware, and that's where they make their money--the hardware.

The iPhone is great hardware, once again, but was severly overpriced in the beginning, and also Apple love to control everything their users do, hence the sneaky/corrupted App Store approval system.


I'm very interested in knowing specifically what you're referring to as "over priced". Not meaning to patronize you, I'm serious.
So yeah, they have some pretty nice stuff, but it's like selling someone a $50 vacuum for $500, because of a name.

I've used the iPhone, and several other Apple products over the years... and I can't say I came away overly impressed. Most of the people who own them just don't care what computer they had--or it looked pretty--or whatever.

I'm very interested in knowing what you specifically consider "over priced". Not meaning to patronize you, I'm serious.

[He123321]

The Pre will not catch up to the iphone, but with the right advertising, it will sell very well. The right advertising will help both companys big time.

I know for a fact that I will be buying one, and the wife will follow. :cool:

[jschu22]

Heres a question- Does the Pre NEED to catch up to anything to be a success?

Allow the first answer to be... no.

[Jspired]

Heres a question- Does the Pre NEED to catch up to anything to be a success?

Allow the first answer to be... no.

I agree! Everything these days is compared to the iPhone and for good reason. That said, the two phones will target two different types of users.

[ScrapMaker]

I'm very interested in knowing what you specifically consider "over priced". Not meaning to patronize you, I'm serious.

Historically, Apple products have been much more expensive than equivalent non-Apple-branded hardware.

From their site: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

"15-inch starts at $1999. 17-inch starts at $2799."

huh? $2800 for a 17" Laptop? It would have to be a dual quad-core, with quad-SLI, folding OLED display, with 2TB of HDD space to be worth "starting" at $2800...

but it's pretty...

[parazitu22]

Historically, Apple products have been much more expensive than equivalent non-Apple-branded hardware.

From their site: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

"15-inch starts at $1999. 17-inch starts at $2799."

huh? $2800 for a 17" Laptop? It would have to be a dual quad-core, with quad-SLI, folding OLED display, with 2TB of HDD space to be worth "starting" at $2800...

but it's pretty...

I also consider apple products overpriced. To be more specific, their laptop/computer line. I think the iphone is very well priced at $199/$299, the plans suck, but that is ATT's doing.

The macs on the other hand, I would never pay that much for a freaking laptop, no matter how pretty they are. I can get a similar spec machine for at least $1000 less.

[d12a60n]

It's almost stupid to compare phone vs phone without taking into consideration the major factor: service carrier. If AT&T would ALSO carry the Pre, then we're talking because now you have the same base of people with the choice of phones. However, in this case we're talking about AT&T subscribers vs Sprint - and we know Sprint is behind AT&T as far as customer numbers. So how could the Pre "catch up" when the number of Sprint subscribers isn't as much as AT&T?? The only way would be to convince current AT&T subscribers to drop their service (and iPhone) and switch over. That's a long shot considering how many people already signed long term contracts (trapped by the iPhone/AT&T partnership). So yeah... my point is people continue to compare phones but never consider that the carrier is a major factor in sales numbers

[jschu22]

Historically, Apple products have been much more expensive than equivalent non-Apple-branded hardware.

From their site: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

"15-inch starts at $1999. 17-inch starts at $2799."

huh? $2800 for a 17" Laptop? It would have to be a dual quad-core, with quad-SLI, folding OLED display, with 2TB of HDD space to be worth "starting" at $2800...

but it's pretty...

From Oxford's Dictionary:

worth
• noun 1- the value or merit of someone or something.

To you, that computer isn't "worth" it but I find it hard to believe there are thousands and thousands of consumers out there that spend their money on that very product based solely on how pretty it is.

[ScrapMaker]

From Oxford's Dictionary:

worth
• noun 1- the value or merit of someone or something.

To you, that computer isn't "worth" it but I find it hard to believe there are thousands and thousands of consumers out there that spend their money on that very product based solely on how pretty it is.

Marketing/perception is everything.

http://www.monstercable.com/

[jschu22]

Marketing/perception is everything.

http://www.monstercable.com/

Oh it's definitely big, can be very big, but not everything. There is just way too much information and outlets to get that information these days for an expensive product to survive on creative marketing alone. I understand you're example there, but there are a lot of audio professionals that would say high-end components are necessary. I'm not one of them so I think Monster Cable's products are too expensive for me. I wouldn't say they are a garbage though.

BTW- I didnt even follow that link as I knew EXACTLY what you were referring to haha.

[ScrapMaker]

Oh it's definitely big, can be very big, but not everything. There is just way too much information and outlets to get that information these days for an expensive product to survive on creative marketing alone. I understand you're example there, but there are a lot of audio professionals that would say high-end components are necessary. I'm not one of them so I think Monster Cable's products are too expensive for me. I wouldn't say they are a garbage though.

BTW- I didnt even follow that link as I knew EXACTLY what you were referring to haha.

Those "audio professionals" are most likely well-paid by monster ;)

Eh, to each their own--but no one can argue that Mac's cost more for the same hardware--especially since it's not 'special' anymore.

Yet, Apple does feel that they can charge large amounts for it..

guh, time to stop being side-tracked ;)

[FreddyC]

Actually, even Palm said that it doesn't want to "compete" with the iPhone. It isn't even POSSIBLE. How many iPhones are out there? How many years has it been out? How many apps (no matter how crappy) are out for it? It's a juggernaut. Now, what it MAY do is slow it down. Apple may come out with an OS update to add desired features, but there are also hardware limitations. And no matter how people love Apple, how many iPhones are they willing to buy? They come out with the iPhone 3000, how many iPhone 3G people are going to buy yet ANOTHER device because it's a little faster?

I know, the majority of them. But the economy isn't all that stellar right now. The Pre may have a chance to sit alongside the iPhone, the iPhone for the CDMA people if you will, but I SERIOUSLY doubt if it would ever catch up or surpass it. Hell, I'd be ecstatic if the adoption rate was HALF of that of the iPhone.

[AmeriKenny]

The only way the Pre has a chance of catching up with the iPhone is if it is offered to any customer of Sprint...not just the Everything Plan customers. :fingers:

[ScrapMaker]

The only way the Pre has a chance of catching up with the iPhone is if it is offered to any customer of Sprint...not just the Everything Plan customers. :fingers:

Yes, but they will make more MONEY, by requiring the plan.

Also, don't forget that the Pre will be on most major carriers--not just Sprint.

I don't think the Pre, (all combined,) has a chance in hell at even breaking 25% of the sales of the iPhone... but that doesn't mean it's not a more powerful device... it just means that Apple users are typically very loyal, and won't change, regardless.

It's like showing an iPod devotee something like a Creative Zen... costs less, smaller, more functional, non-proprietary software--etc... but the Apple user will tell you it's utter crap... At least the ones I've dealt with.

I went in to buy a Zen at Fry's, and the sales guy was a MacHead, or whatever they call themselves nowadays--anyways, he wouldn't stop bothering me... Kept trying to show me the iPod selection that cost more and offered less... he was honestly confused as to why I would not want an Apple product.

So, turning it around back to my original point... no, the Pre won't get anywhere near Apple's figures--because of marketing and loyal customers... Simple as that.

[AmeriKenny]

If Sprint jacks up the price of the Pre say to $299 after rebates, BUT doesn't require people to have an Everything Plan, then it might work. They might sell more just by doing that. That way, people aren't forced to upgrade to having to pay $100 a month after buying the phone for a lesser price. So basically pay lot up front for the phone, then get a cheaper plan. But this is only wishful thinking on my part. I know that this won't happen in the real world. lol

[Awake]

Yes, but they will make more MONEY, by requiring the plan.

Also, don't forget that the Pre will be on most major carriers--not just Sprint.

I don't think the Pre, (all combined,) has a chance in hell at even breaking 25% of the sales of the iPhone... but that doesn't mean it's not a more powerful device... it just means that Apple users are typically very loyal, and won't change, regardless.

It's like showing an iPod devotee something like a Creative Zen... costs less, smaller, more functional, non-proprietary software--etc... but the Apple user will tell you it's utter crap... At least the ones I've dealt with.

I went in to buy a Zen at Fry's, and the sales guy was a MacHead, or whatever they call themselves nowadays--anyways, he wouldn't stop bothering me... Kept trying to show me the iPod selection that cost more and offered less... he was honestly confused as to why I would not want an Apple product.

So, turning it around back to my original point... no, the Pre won't get anywhere near Apple's figures--because of marketing and loyal customers... Simple as that.

Sprint will be the only American carrier with their brand on the Pre, Palms CEO said the next version will be a GSM Euro world ready device released in regions Sprint does NOT have service. Sprint has full exclusivity.

I believe the Pre will be more success than the iphone, why?? Because it will work, don't forget that Palm was once the leader in this department especially with business customers. Palm wants desperately to lure back the business customers it lost to Rim years ago. For a lot of folks the iphone has been a disappointment, still no MMS, no video recorder, no copy and paste. Signals dropping down to Edge due to ATT's spotty 3G.

I know a lot of iphone owners who were going to ditch it before they knew about the Pre. I doubt the next iphone will be that much different from the first two.

[PhoneFreak]

Do we really need the PRE to be an iphone killer ? Not me. I'm content having a great OS on a great device, with a great 3G network, on a great plan.
The sum of all those makes it #1 in my book.

My friends that have the iphone on ATT can't boast all those points. They have a great OS on a great device and it stops there.:lol:

[RyanM]

Dang, this phone makes me miss sprint!!! Honestly the iphone does nothing for me these days seeing that every pre-teen to even middle aged businessman is toting them around. The Pre could be the saving grace for sprint and as a former user for 7 years, I hope they make it.

[INTERNATIONAL]

Maybe Apple should merge with Bose, then they can combine their powers of misconception...

First, I wish Sprint/Palm all the best for a successful Pre marketing launch. Second, I have an Ipod and Bose earphones and I've been in :music:music heaven :boohoo:ever since. My problem is with companies following rather than leading and being innovative. Hopefully, we will witness a novel device with apps on its way to market. Reasonably priced will usher in new subscriptions and resigns.:clap:

[ScrapMaker]

First, I wish Sprint/Palm all the best for a successful Pre marketing launch. Second, I have an Ipod and Bose earphones and I've been in :music:music heaven :boohoo:ever since. My problem is with companies following rather than leading and being innovative. Hopefully, we will witness a novel device with apps on its way to market. Reasonably priced will usher in new subscriptions and resigns.:clap:

There's nothing wrong with Bose headphones, except for the price ;)

I'm wearing the QC2 right now, in a loud-ass server room... and they are nice... but I had a $25 pair of noise-cancelling headphones before that sounded just as good, if not better... they broke, and I got these as a gift from my company.

Damnit, release this phone already! I'm jonesing so bad for a new phone... I had the Pro for a while, and I came back to my Touch... ever since then I've been unhappy with my Touch... so sluggish comparatively...

gimme pre!!

[laursifer]

The Pre will never catch up to the iPhone... because of one thing.

Marketing.

I agree with this part of your post. The Pre will never "catch up" to the iPhone based mostly on marketing. The marketing team at Apple is extremely good and extremely successful at what they do.

Heres a question- Does the Pre NEED to catch up to anything to be a success?

Allow the first answer to be... no.

Also agreed. I am constantly annoyed that nearly every new PDA phone is constantly compared against the iPhone as to whether or not it's "good enough."

[AmeriKenny]

I agree with this part of your post. The Pre will never "catch up" to the iPhone based mostly on marketing. The marketing team at Apple is extremely good and extremely successful at what they do.



Also agreed. I am constantly annoyed that nearly every new PDA phone is constantly compared against the iPhone as to whether or not it's "good enough."
Well you have to realize that there is a reason. The reason is: The iPhone is light years ahead of the competition. They are eventually going to have a monopoly on the market. Do you think other cell companies what this to happen? I don't think so. That's why it's important for thre to be competitors. Another thing is many Sprint users such as myself have terrific plans right now with Sprint and no other major carrier can beat what we pay right now, but we all are in love with the iPhone and would do anything to get it--but we can't because we are stuck with Sprint; either in contract or have an incredible deal. So we are desperate for Sprint to either get the iPhone or come up with something that's equal to it. The Instinct was close, but not enough. The Pre should hopefully do the trick. So to sum things up, we get to keep our great value with Sprint and have a phenomenal device that's like an iPhone.

[laursifer]

Well you have to realize that there is a reason. The reason is: The iPhone is light years ahead of the competition. They are eventually going to have a monopoly on the market. Do you think other cell companies what this to happen? I don't think so. That's why it's important for thre to be competitors.

I'm not annoyed by there being competition--that would make me a closed-minded idiot, and I'm not an idiot ;) (I also wouldn't say the iPhone is light years ahead of the competition, but for reasons that go way off topic for this thread lol). I'm annoyed with people who compare every PDA or PDA-like phone to an iPhone, saying these phones aren't good enough, when basically all they're saying is that it's not an iPhone. But, when a phone is released that has iPhone-like features and functions, it's constantly called out for "ripping off the iPhone." If the comparisons happened in a civilized way that made sense, it wouldn't annoy me. That's all I'm sayin' :)

[Aurakles]

I will consider my life complete if I never read another thread comparing every touch screen phone to the iPhone. Or, moreover, the notion that to be considered a success the phone has to catch up to or beat the iPhone in sales. I guess my life won't be complete this day, though. That aside, is it really that difficult to examine the Pre (or any touch screen phone, for that matter) without looking at the iPhone? Nothing will be the iPhone, but that is not to say that the iPhone is the best, but rather that the iPhone is a cultural phenomenon that's part form, part function, part marketing, part hype, part perception, and part fact. Few devices can or will achieve that, but that is not to say that they are not good in their own right or even exceptional. I, for one, love my Motorola Q Global (AT&T), despite the fact that I loathe WM. I have large hands and the Q Global is a perfect size, has a great keyboard, gets excellent reception and outstanding call quality (due to crystal talk). Is it an iPhone? No. Does it have to be? Not at all. It works best for me and that's what matters most: what works best for you, not for others. As to the Pre, specifically, of what I have seen demonstrated I am impressed. Unless the demos were an elaborate farce or somehow do not indicate end user experience, I cannot wait. I will most probably switch from AT&T to get the device.

[AmeriKenny]

Since the Instinct's release, I don't think any Sprint phone has been compared to the iPhone as much as the Pre has been. Why? I think many experts and users would agree that the iPhone is one of the best devices, if not THE best device available today. And the only people in America that can get it are ATT customers!!! Now that just plain SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you guys not realize how bad that sucks for some of us Sprint customers that love a phone that can do, act, and behave the way an iPhone can but just simply can't get one because either we are under contract with Sprint or we just love our Sprint plan too much to leave? The Pre seems to be the answer. The Instinct was not. But maybe our dream of having the iPhone will come to fruition with the release of the Pre. Is it an iPhone? No. But will it come close? So far it seems that way!!!!

[yabo]

Since the Instinct's release, I don't think any Sprint phone has been compared to the iPhone as much as the Pre has been. Why? I think many experts and users would agree that the iPhone is one of the best devices, if not THE best device available today. And the only people in America that can get it are ATT customers!!! Now that just plain SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you guys not realize how bad that sucks for some of us Sprint customers that love a phone that can do, act, and behave the way an iPhone can but just simply can't get one because either we are under contract with Sprint or we just love our Sprint plan too much to leave? The Pre seems to be the answer. The Instinct was not. But maybe our dream of having the iPhone will come to fruition with the release of the Pre. Is it an iPhone? No. But will it come close? So far it seems that way!!!!

Not to be obtuse, but, the Iphone wished it was half of what the Pre will be. The only thing the Iphone has going for it is that it's multinational. CDMA just isn't internationally portable. (Not that I mind, my company rents phones to people for a living... I'd be in trouble if everyones phone worked everywhere =D )

[AmeriKenny]

Well Apple is smart. Why market to 0.305 billion (or 305 million) people when you can market to 6.879 billion?

[yabo]

Well Apple is smart. Why market to 0.305 billion (or 305 million) people when you can market to 6.879 billion?

Here's some quick market facts on CDMA:

* 276 commercial operators
* 102 countries/territories
* 268 commercial 1X networks
* 23 1X networks in deployment
* 106 commercial 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks
* 42 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks in deployment
* 57 commercial 1xEV-DO Rev. A network
* 34 1xEV-DO Rev. A networks in deployment
* 463,150,000 CDMA2000 subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 105,200,000 CDMA2000 1xEV-DO subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 2,050 devices have been introduced in to the market including 526 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 and 96 1xEV-DO Rev A devices
(as of January 22, 2009)

Out of like 220 countries, it's available in about half. GSM is available in all but 2. I mentioned it wasn't "internationally portable". I didn't say you couldn't use it at all. :rolleyes:

[ScrapMaker]

Here's some quick market facts on CDMA:

* 276 commercial operators
* 102 countries/territories
* 268 commercial 1X networks
* 23 1X networks in deployment
* 106 commercial 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks
* 42 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks in deployment
* 57 commercial 1xEV-DO Rev. A network
* 34 1xEV-DO Rev. A networks in deployment
* 463,150,000 CDMA2000 subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 105,200,000 CDMA2000 1xEV-DO subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 2,050 devices have been introduced in to the market including 526 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 and 96 1xEV-DO Rev A devices
(as of January 22, 2009)

Out of like 220 countries, it's available in about half. GSM is available in all but 2. I mentioned it wasn't "internationally portable". I didn't say you couldn't use it at all. :rolleyes:

no he dih-ehnt!

[AmeriKenny]

Thanks for those facts yabo.

[jschu22]

Not to be obtuse, but, the Iphone wished it was half of what the Pre will be. The only thing the Iphone has going for it is that it's multinational.

Seriously? I'm having a hard time getting my head around "wishing you half of something that isn't even out yet". Can someone help me out here?

[FreddyC]

The iPhone doesn't have to wish it was anything; it's already the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Forget about catching it, I'd like it if we could all just get along. This thing sells over a million in it's "lifetime", we're looking really good.

[jschu22]

The iPhone doesn't have to wish it was anything; it's already the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Forget about catching it, I'd like it if we could all just get along. This thing sells over a million in it's "lifetime", we're looking really good.

I agree. There is no need to even worry about catching up or beating or whatever. It's not going to happen in a 1st generation Pre for sure but that doesn't mean it wouldnt be a success regardless. You know, it is possible for more than one touch-screen mobile phone to be a big hit.

[cwfluke]

The iPhone doesn't have to wish it was anything; it's already the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Forget about catching it, I'd like it if we could all just get along. This thing sells over a million in it's "lifetime", we're looking really good.

Whilst I agree......honestly who cares?! I'm confused as to why this is even a question. Can a phone not be considered successful if it doesn't surpass the iPhone in sales?! What a joke of a thread. Guess everyone not named Apple should just stop making phones, huh?! Who gives a rats *** about the iPhone and sales comparisons?!

[yabo]

I agree. There is no need to even worry about catching up or beating or whatever. It's not going to happen in a 1st generation Pre for sure but that doesn't mean it wouldnt be a success regardless. You know, it is possible for more than one touch-screen mobile phone to be a big hit.


I could care less if it's a hit or not... I am only concerned with pure specs. By the numbers, the Pre smokes the Iphone. It's that simple. I truly hope it *is* a big seller and it reinvigorates both Palm and Sprint, but, the techy in me simply wants a phone that's able to keep up with my needs.

I'm not disagreeing with you about this... I also despise the fact that the Iphone is the litmus test of a good phone to the general populace. It's not about if it's a Iphone killer or not. It's about whether it's a great device, and it's definitely looking to be one.

[ScrapMaker]

I could care less if it's a hit or not... I am only concerned with pure specs. By the numbers, the Pre smokes the Iphone. It's that simple. I truly hope it *is* a big seller and it reinvigorates both Palm and Sprint, but, the techy in me simply wants a phone that's able to keep up with my needs.

I'm not disagreeing with you about this... I also despise the fact that the Iphone is the litmus test of a good phone to the general populace. It's not about if it's a Iphone killer or not. It's about whether it's a great device, and it's definitely looking to be one.

iPhone has been marketed well... has that chic, hip, cool, or whatever the hell you call it--appeal... I have heard people tell me they got the iPhone because it looked cool on the commercial...

The iPhone has not been superior than MANY phones to come out--but marketing wins every time... mob mentality... if you can influence the people, you will win.

[AmeriKenny]

I could care less if it's a hit or not... I am only concerned with pure specs. By the numbers, the Pre smokes the Iphone. It's that simple. I truly hope it *is* a big seller and it reinvigorates both Palm and Sprint, but, the techy in me simply wants a phone that's able to keep up with my needs.

I'm not disagreeing with you about this... I also despise the fact that the Iphone is the litmus test of a good phone to the general populace. It's not about if it's a Iphone killer or not. It's about whether it's a great device, and it's definitely looking to be one.
Well some people want the BEST. And according to many reviews and most people, the iPhone is THE BEST phone. Sadly though, if you are a faithful Sprint customer, you are doomed to never being able to get an iPhone...that is, unless you switch to ATT. Now that Sprint is going to be coming out with the Pre, us smartphone lovers that want the best (like the iPhone) can get something similar, if not slightly better! It's just a dream come true for us iPhone lovers. Now we can not only get something that is like the iPhone or better, but we can stick with Sprint! It's like having your cake and eating it too!!! LOL:headbang2

[cwfluke]

iPhone has been marketed well... has that chic, hip, cool, or whatever the hell you call it--appeal... I have heard people tell me they got the iPhone because it looked cool on the commercial...

The iPhone has not been superior than MANY phones to come out--but marketing wins every time... mob mentality... if you can influence the people, you will win.

I agree. People in general are sheep. There are plenty of alternatives out there that work just as well if not better - but they aren't called an iPhone and aren't made by Apple.....so they must be crap.

[yabo]

I agree. People in general are sheep. There are plenty of alternatives out there that work just as well if not better - but they aren't called an iPhone and aren't made by Apple.....so they must be crap.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Michielyn]

And by the same token, many people here are just iPhone haters.

It isn't just the marketing. The iPhone UI is slick. It's seemingly fancy phone that NON geeks can use. My dad could use it, my grandma even. This appeals to the masses. No other Sprint/Nextel phone has ever as smooth of a UI as the iPhone. It really isn't about the hardware. It glides. It's pretty. 3 quick clicks and I have all local pizza places.

With the said, the entire time I owned my iPhone (1.5 precious years ;-) ), I missed my palm pilot. Not being able to edit files, not being able to copy/paste, not being able to send MMS, not having proper GPS... etc (not being able to add memory, or camcorder also but Pre also lacks this). For this reason I switched over to the Touch Pro. :indiff::irked: There is something to be said for a phone that is "easy" without needing anything.

I am so excited for the Pre. For me, it will match the iPhone if it brings Palm functionality with iPhone like "slickness" to Sprint. That's it. :fingers:

[ScrapMaker]

I'd like to point out that the Pre doesn't necessarily lack a camcorder function...

[jschu22]

I'd like to point out that right now, the Pre lacks everything.

[ScrapMaker]

I like to point out that people are pointing out that other people are pointing things out.

on a side note, the Pre exists, there are many new videos surfacing of action live shots, so it really doesn't lack everything. You just lack a Pre to see it in person.

[BTSmith]

Here's some quick market facts on CDMA:

* 276 commercial operators
* 102 countries/territories
* 268 commercial 1X networks
* 23 1X networks in deployment
* 106 commercial 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks
* 42 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 networks in deployment
* 57 commercial 1xEV-DO Rev. A network
* 34 1xEV-DO Rev. A networks in deployment
* 463,150,000 CDMA2000 subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 105,200,000 CDMA2000 1xEV-DO subscribers (3Q 2008)
* 2,050 devices have been introduced in to the market including 526 1xEV-DO Rel. 0 and 96 1xEV-DO Rev A devices
(as of January 22, 2009)

Out of like 220 countries, it's available in about half. GSM is available in all but 2. I mentioned it wasn't "internationally portable". I didn't say you couldn't use it at all. :rolleyes:
Not market facts but Marketing facts ;)

These are spin from the CDMA advocacy site and if you look up a number of the carriers thy list those carriers have announced conversion to gSM.

I am not taking a side in the GSM vs CDMA fight. I am on CDMA and like it, but CDMA is losing ground to GSM and those numbers are spin.

Look at the "coverage maps" of where your source claims CDMA is available. A lot is patently false.

[BTSmith]

iPhone has been marketed well... has that chic, hip, cool, or whatever the hell you call it--appeal... I have heard people tell me they got the iPhone because it looked cool on the commercial...

The iPhone has not been superior than MANY phones to come out--but marketing wins every time... mob mentality... if you can influence the people, you will win.
I don't disagree with soem of what you say but "Mnb mentality" is a prejorative for the real issue -- value of large user base.

I could probably show you the "specs" on languages that are more expressive, precise, easier to spell etc than English.

Whether you are a native English speaker, or a person who speaks a thid language considering English or the alternative better spec language, the user base of English, the amount of works in English (existing and future) is a factor that represents a value to you for your investment.

I don't have an iphone but there you know I have seen over and over someone less technically adept with an iphone, askign another person with an iphone how to do this or that. They get answers. A person buying a Pre isn't going to find that so easy for a long time.

[Eyecon82]

This phone as already surpassed the Iphone due to flash

http://www.sprintusers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182900

[jschu22]

This phone as already surpassed the Iphone due to flash

http://www.sprintusers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182900

This is like saying Usain Bolt already beat me in a race when he is still in the locker room.

[ScrapMaker]

This is like saying Usain Bolt already beat me in a race when he is still in the locker room.

So when Dodge announces the 2010 Viper SRT10, and says it will be released in 6 months, does that make it's specifications irrelevant?

[jschu22]

So when Dodge announces the 2010 Viper SRT10, and says it will be released in 6 months, does that make it's specifications irrelevant?

No, not at all. But it hasn't beaten anything yet... including a soccer mom's fully-loaded (with kids) minivan.

Also, that would be an example of Dodge providing a lot more detail on a release than Palm has by the way.

[dknight247]

The only way the Pre has a chance of catching up with the iPhone is if it is offered to any customer of Sprint...not just the Everything Plan customers. :fingers:

Bump!

[dknight247]

Yes, but they will make more MONEY, by requiring the plan.

Also, don't forget that the Pre will be on most major carriers--not just Sprint.

I don't think the Pre, (all combined,) has a chance in hell at even breaking 25% of the sales of the iPhone... but that doesn't mean it's not a more powerful device... it just means that Apple users are typically very loyal, and won't change, regardless.

It's like showing an iPod devotee something like a Creative Zen... costs less, smaller, more functional, non-proprietary software--etc... but the Apple user will tell you it's utter crap... At least the ones I've dealt with.

I went in to buy a Zen at Fry's, and the sales guy was a MacHead, or whatever they call themselves nowadays--anyways, he wouldn't stop bothering me... Kept trying to show me the iPod selection that cost more and offered less... he was honestly confused as to why I would not want an Apple product.

So, turning it around back to my original point... no, the Pre won't get anywhere near Apple's figures--because of marketing and loyal customers... Simple as that.

i beg to differ. they will make more MONEY by selling more phones. those that can afford the phone, but not the plan will simply NOT BUY the phone....

[jschu22]

i beg to differ. they will make more MONEY by selling more phones. those that can afford the phone, but not the plan will simply NOT BUY the phone....

This is going to open up an entirely different debate... but Sprint (or any carrier for that matter) does not make much, if anything, off handset sales. The big money is in the recurring monthly charges.

[ScrapMaker]

This is going to open up an entirely different debate... but Sprint (or any carrier for that matter) does not make much, if anything, off handset sales. The big money is in the recurring monthly charges.

+1

Many times they LOSE money on the phone. They make their money on the plans, which is why they want to push the Everything plans.

[jschu22]

Many times they LOSE money on the phone.

Shhhh. Now we are going to have a bunch of brilliant business minds come state how this is impossible.

[ScrapMaker]

Shhhh. Now we are going to have a bunch of brilliant business minds come state how this is impossible.

Here, I'll start...

***!? I read online that the Pre only costs $80 to make!! R&D? what's that?! That sounds like a stupid name for a fone! I bet it only costs like fiddy dollars to think up a foen like tha Pre!

Sprint and Palm are screwwing over the consoomer 1nce agan!

[DWarri0r]

I would like to point out that, existential import not being a feature of modern systems of logic, nonexistent Pres contain all features you could possibly wish for and are thus supremely superior to iPhones, save for existing.

[TextMailManiac]

I tire of the comparison to the iPhone that has become the "yardstick" for every phone discussion.

The iPhone bubble is just like the credit and real estate bubbles -- an expensive, passing fad that will burst as the economy continues to deteriorate.

I don't care how wonderful the phone is, a two-year contract and real "unlimited" service for $160 before tax is NOT a bargain.

A Sprint Pre (or Windows Mobile smartphone) for $99 a month with the same features is going to be much more attractive for business users (who need a business-capable device, which iPhone is not) and many consumers alike. The iPhone bubble is primed to burst, as Apple continues to restrict usability, tightly control applications, and keep price of buying and ownership very high.

[ScrapMaker]

A Sprint Pre (or Windows Mobile smartphone) for $99 a month with the same features is going to be much more attractive for business users (who need a business-capable device, which iPhone is not) and many consumers alike. The iPhone bubble is primed to burst, as Apple continues to restrict usability, tightly control applications, and keep price of buying and ownership very high.

Exactly why I am on the SEP. I use several thousand minutes each month. If I wasn't, I'd switch to the 450 Everything.

[jschu22]

I tire of the comparison to the iPhone that has become the "yardstick" for every phone discussion.

The iPhone bubble is just like the credit and real estate bubbles -- an expensive, passing fad that will burst as the economy continues to deteriorate.

I don't care how wonderful the phone is, a two-year contract and real "unlimited" service for $160 before tax is NOT a bargain.

A Sprint Pre (or Windows Mobile smartphone) for $99 a month with the same features is going to be much more attractive for business users (who need a business-capable device, which iPhone is not) and many consumers alike. The iPhone bubble is primed to burst, as Apple continues to restrict usability, tightly control applications, and keep price of buying and ownership very high.

Yet another wonderful example of the ignorance that believes one must fail for another to succeed.

If you in fact were waiting for a bubble to burst (similar to many "analysts" prior to Apple's Q4 results announcement) you might be waiting for a while... and many other, albeit smaller, corporate bubbles might burst in the meantime.

After reading your post again, I realize you have little to zero real knowledge of what you speak of because unless we have an absolute failure of civilization as we know it, the two "bubbles" you speak of (credit and real estate) are no "passing fads". Portraying them as such is laughable because one is arguably a requirement and the other is, outside of gold, the closest thing to a sure-thing when it comes to an investment. Regardless of how bad the economy is, try abandoning credit and ask any intelligent person if real estate is a bad long term investment.

[ScrapMaker]

I'm my humble opinion, most Apple customers do not care about price, performance, or compatibility.

They are more for perceived "ease of use," aesthetics, and flat-out that something is an Apple product to begin with, regardless of superior competition.

That's not to say that Apple doesn't innovate, but for the most part, they have a huge blind loyal following, which is the best customer base Apple could ask for.

So I don't expect Apples "bubble," to "burst," anytime soon, either.

Logic and common sense go out the window when you have superior marketing.

[jschu22]

I'm my humble opinion, most Apple customers do not care about price, performance, or compatibility.

They are more for perceived "ease of use," aesthetics, and flat-out that something is an Apple product to begin with, regardless of superior competition.

That's not to say that Apple doesn't innovate, but for the most part, they have a huge blind loyal following, which is the best customer base Apple could ask for.

So I don't expect Apples "bubble," to "burst," anytime soon, either.

Logic and common sense go out the window when you have superior marketing.

I know you're going to say I am an exception to the rule but I believe what I am about to say disproves the so-called rule, even if there are many that buy something out of sheer popularity.

I have an iPhone, and have had it since last July, which puts me at approximately 7 months of ownership. This in itself is no big accomplishment unless you consider my history- most of it being with Sprint. Feel free to view my many posts over the years about the numerous phones I have owned. I have literally forgotten about more phones I have had than others have owned in their entire mobile phone history. I use this example not as a way to brag about how much I have had but as a way of explaining that the very phone many dismiss here as not much more than clever marketing can in fact be a very satisfying device. Some may have purchased the iPhone due to a perception of "coolness" but the reality of a high-end user being very satisfied for quite some time cannot, and should not, be ignored. I sincerely hope I will feel the same way about the Pre.

[ScrapMaker]

I'm not saying the iPhone isn't a great device, but I do think it was originally overpriced, and I think it's more of a popularity contest now. When someone pulls out their iPhone and brags to me about it, I can't help but roll my eyes... Hell, who cares what phone anyone has? I don't have any numbers or hard evidence here, but in my own experience, I'd say the iPhone is the most bragged-about and shown-off phone to ever exist. Perhaps maybe the first carphone was more shown-off, but I don't know for sure.

I do know normal people with the iPhone, but that is only 1 person, the other 9-10 people I know, personally, with iPhones, brag about them on a constant basis, and tell me how superior they are to all other phones... Touting apps, features, etc... I just get tired of it.. Then to get online, and see every phone in the universe put up against the iPhone just makes it that more irritating.

And yes, you are the exception to the rule ;)

There are definitely some cool things about the iPhone.

[jschu22]

I'm not saying the iPhone isn't a great device, but I do think it was originally overpriced, and I think it's more of a popularity contest now. When someone pulls out their iPhone and brags to me about it, I can't help but roll my eyes... Hell, who cares what phone anyone has? I don't have any numbers or hard evidence here, but in my own experience, I'd say the iPhone is the most bragged-about and shown-off phone to ever exist. Perhaps maybe the first carphone was more shown-off, but I don't know for sure.

I do know normal people with the iPhone, but that is only 1 person, the other 9-10 people I know, personally, with iPhones, brag about them on a constant basis, and tell me how superior they are to all other phones... Touting apps, features, etc... I just get tired of it.. Then to get online, and see every phone in the universe put up against the iPhone just makes it that more irritating.

And yes, you are the exception to the rule ;)

There are definitely some cool things about the iPhone.

I'm not going to say you are totally dismissive of the iPhone, but I can't help wonder how you would feel following some consistent hands on usage of it. Another SU member here, Jake, very appropriately put it this way:

"On paper, the iPhone isn't extraordinary, but the user experience makes all the difference."

I know that it isn't for everyone hardware-wise and the monthly costs aren't what some would call a "bargain", but it was never made out to be that. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot out there that have in fact dismissed it, for no valid reason.

Once again, I very much hope that the Pre can have a success such as this.

[ScrapMaker]

Yeah I considered getting the iPhone, but I couldn't justify the plan cost... and there's no way my employer would either :(

[triggarhappy]

I am sorry but I am reading these posts about the iPhone and I have to admit in my opinion I think it is a phone that fails in many ways. Like I said this is my opinion cause the features I like the most this phone does not operate well at. Its like if Apple were God and they had to create the fastest runner in the world, they would do so but have him paralyzed from the waste down. Is the phone the most responsive touch screen phone on the market today, yes. Does it have by far the best looking browser on the market today, yes. Is it a great multimedia phone, yes. But why make a phone designed around music and videos and not put stereo bluetooth in it. Why make a high end phone that can not do video capture nor can it send pics via mms? Why make a phone where you can not delete one contact at a time from call history? Why do I need apps to make the phone operate like it should have and like some phones that you can get free with a 2 year service agreement. I hate this phone and hate is a strong word. I hate when people ask me why their iPhone can not perform a certain way, like something simple as copy paste and fowarding text messages. Answer is it cant but for a little fee you can buy an app that can?! My brother who is 10 years old has an iPhone and so does my dad and they want me to get this phone that people claim is the greatest phone. Funny part about most iPhone users is they follow their friends and get the phone not qualifying themselves to make sure its the right phone for them. I can count the number of times I spoke to iPhone users and asked them why did they get the phone and to find out that another phone would have been perfect for them rather the iPhone.

Let me stop cause I will never end on why I dislike this phone. Will I admit it is great in certain areas, yes but do I think its the best phone out there no. What do I feel is the best phone out there? None, there is no such thing. What us Americans forget is how to think on our own. We look to what our friends have and buy that, we read CNET and Consumer Report and buy what they tell us. Rather then sitting down and saying well you know I do this and that with my phone I think I need this phone. What YOU do with your phone is what makes the best phone for YOU. Where you live and travel is what makes the best network for YOU. Stop following other people like sheep and learn to buy on your own so you do have to be like most of the people I run into who purchased the iPhone because they saw their co worker, friend or relative use it so they need it now.

[jschu22]

I am sorry but I am reading these posts about the iPhone and I have to admit in my opinion I think it is a phone that fails in many ways. Like I said this is my opinion cause the features I like the most this phone does not operate well at. Its like if Apple were God and they had to create the fastest runner in the world, they would do so but have him paralyzed from the waste down. Is the phone the most responsive touch screen phone on the market today, yes. Does it have by far the best looking browser on the market today, yes. Is it a great multimedia phone, yes. But why make a phone designed around music and videos and not put stereo bluetooth in it. Why make a high end phone that can not do video capture nor can it send pics via mms? Why make a phone where you can not delete one contact at a time from call history? Why do I need apps to make the phone operate like it should have and like some phones that you can get free with a 2 year service agreement. I hate this phone and hate is a strong word. I hate when people ask me why their iPhone can not perform a certain way, like something simple as copy paste and fowarding text messages. Answer is it cant but for a little fee you can buy an app that can?! My brother who is 10 years old has an iPhone and so does my dad and they want me to get this phone that people claim is the greatest phone. Funny part about most iPhone users is they follow their friends and get the phone not qualifying themselves to make sure its the right phone for them. I can count the number of times I spoke to iPhone users and asked them why did they get the phone and to find out that another phone would have been perfect for them rather the iPhone.

Let me stop cause I will never end on why I dislike this phone. Will I admit it is great in certain areas, yes but do I think its the best phone out there no. What do I feel is the best phone out there? None, there is no such thing. What us Americans forget is how to think on our own. We look to what our friends have and buy that, we read CNET and Consumer Report and buy what they tell us. Rather then sitting down and saying well you know I do this and that with my phone I think I need this phone. What YOU do with your phone is what makes the best phone for YOU. Where you live and travel is what makes the best network for YOU. Stop following other people like sheep and learn to buy on your own so you do have to be like most of the people I run into who purchased the iPhone because they saw their co worker, friend or relative use it so they need it now.

I actually kind of feel sorry for you that a phone gives you such strong negative feelings. Dislike it but let it stop there- save the hate for individuals that do horrible things to others, not an inanimate object.

[Noodle]

actually triggarhappy has a point. there are a ton of people who don't really look into if a certain phone is actually right for their needs and just buy into marketing. Sure I'm no apple fanboy, I do think their products are overpriced. However a good amount you are paying for is design asthetics. I do own a 4th gen Nano, I do love the ease of use.

Sure I could have gotten somthing cheaper but I paid the extra $50 for the ease of use and design I liked. I do think the Macbooks are very good looking however I don't think the extra $1000 is worth the asthetics.

[ScrapMaker]

actually triggarhappy has a point. there are a ton of people who don't really look into if a certain phone is actually right for their needs and just buy into marketing. Sure I'm no apple fanboy, I do think their products are overpriced. However a good amount you are paying for is design asthetics. I do own a 4th gen Nano, I do love the ease of use.

Sure I could have gotten somthing cheaper but I paid the extra $50 for the ease of use and design I liked. I do think the Macbooks are very good looking however I don't think the extra $1000 is worth the asthetics.

Most Apple users would argue that it's much, much more than aesthetics. They would argue that it's a much better value as well, considering performance, disk drive size, screen size, screen fidelity, weight, battery life, and OS compatibility.

That's when I cut them off and tell them that I'd like a #1 with fries ;) jk

[jschu22]

actually triggarhappy has a point. there are a ton of people who don't really look into if a certain phone is actually right for their needs and just buy into marketing. Sure I'm no apple fanboy, I do think their products are overpriced. However a good amount you are paying for is design asthetics. I do own a 4th gen Nano, I do love the ease of use.

Sure I could have gotten somthing cheaper but I paid the extra $50 for the ease of use and design I liked. I do think the Macbooks are very good looking however I don't think the extra $1000 is worth the asthetics.

And these "tons" of people only buy iPhones?

It's going to be really interesting around here when the Pre-fanboys are having to defend their precious phone because others feel the need to critique it to death for no good reason. If a phone doesn't meet your needs- fine, dont buy it. Do not dismiss it constantly and assume that the majority that purchase it are doing so because of some sort of magic spell.

As an iPhone owner (and future Pre owner as well), I find this insulting. I only hope that all of us will be spared that when the Pre finally comes out. I am not holding my breath though as I don't believe there will be a sudden outbreak in open-minded thinking.

[BTSmith]

The iPhone bubble is just like the credit and real estate bubbles -- an expensive, passing fad that will burst as the economy continues to deteriorate.
Lol, I feel the same way about Windows. Do you understand that largely distributed platforms like iphone have their own econoy of scale?
ain.

A Sprint Pre (or Windows Mobile smartphone) for $99 a month with the same features is going to be much more attractive for business users (who need a business-capable device, which iPhone is not) and many consumers alike.

Dont put Win MOb in the same category when it comes to business users. Business are risk averse and don't pick up new small footprint operating systems. Pre or its successors may develop a business following but not for the first six months.

Here, I'll start...
***!? I read online that the Pre only costs $80 to make!! R&D? what's that?! That sounds like a stupid name for a fone! I bet it only costs like fiddy dollars to think up a foen like tha Pre!

good point. Also the marketing of a new system and phone could cost on the order of $100 to 200 million easy. Sprint planned to spend $200 million in the Instinct. $100 million in marketing is $200 a phone on the first 500,000!

[BTSmith]

I'm not saying the iPhone isn't a great device, but I do think it was originally overpriced, and I think it's more of a popularity contest now. When someone pulls out their iPhone and brags to me about it, I can't help but roll my eyes... Hell, who cares what phone anyone has? I don't have any numbers or hard evidence here, but in my own experience, I'd say the iPhone is the most bragged-about and shown-off phone to ever exist. Perhaps maybe the first carphone was more shown-off, but I don't know for sure..

But this is a value. It amy not be a value to you and I but it is a value. you may as well say there are better values and better cars than BMW, but status and bragging rights are unquestionably a value.

This is to just a value among the idiot or blind masses, but a value to the top demographics, top educated people.

Brand value, status value are not simply shell games, they exist in modern culture, just like in the stone age a cool set of shells or a bear tooth around you neck gave you status. These are not the people serving your fries at McDonalds, but the top educated top earning people that spend 3/4 of their money on status and brand purchases.

Have you seen the scene in American Psycho with the business cards?

On material benefit of iPhone as a brand there is also the huge footprint. That is an objective per se benefit. 20 million units means more developers, more accessories.

[jschu22]

But this is a value. It amy not be a value to you and I but it is a value. you may as well say there are better values and better cars than BMW, but status and bragging rights are unquestionably a value.

This is to just a value among the idiot or blind masses, but a value to the top demographics, top educated people.

Brand value, status value are not simply shell games, they exist in modern culture, just like in the stone age a cool set of shells or a bear tooth around you neck gave you status. These are not the people serving your fries at McDonalds, but the top educated top earning people that spend 3/4 of their money on status and brand purchases.

Have you seen the scene in American Psycho with the business cards?

On material benefit of iPhone as a brand there is also the huge footprint. That is an objective per se benefit. 20 million units means more developers, more accessories.

A very astute post but alas, I fear it's worth will be lost. Not enough "McDonald's workers" here.

[ScrapMaker]

hehe I'm just joshin'. Although everyone I know that has an iPhone looks down at the rest of us and constantly belittles our phones. I know that NOT all iPhones users are like that, especially when I was briefly thinking of getting one myself.

Come to think of it, I just don't like anyone that measures their success with "stuff." This seems to be the case with a lot of people. Call me old fashioned, but I buy something based on features, reliability, and pricepoint, over aesthetics and what could possibly make me seems cooler in some clique.

I know that a lot of people will get the Pre for the same reason, and I will rightfully call them out on it. In the end, at least they are supporting two companies I personally like... I condone their business practices.

People will continue to look down their noses at others, but hopefully not as badly with the Pre... I hope...

[jschu22]

Come to think of it, I just don't like anyone that measures their success with "stuff." This seems to be the case with a lot of people. Call me old fashioned, but I buy something based on features, reliability, and pricepoint, over aesthetics and what could possibly make me seems cooler in some clique.

I don't disagree with you at all. In this case.

[triggarhappy]

actually triggarhappy has a point. there are a ton of people who don't really look into if a certain phone is actually right for their needs and just buy into marketing. Sure I'm no apple fanboy, I do think their products are overpriced. However a good amount you are paying for is design asthetics. I do own a 4th gen Nano, I do love the ease of use.

Sure I could have gotten somthing cheaper but I paid the extra $50 for the ease of use and design I liked. I do think the Macbooks are very good looking however I don't think the extra $1000 is worth the asthetics.

Thanks for understanding where I am coming from. 1) it bugs me when people think they should get a phone because someone they know have that phone. 2) it bugs me even more when the person selling the phone does not question the buyer on why they are getting such phone. I am not talking the iPhone I am talking any phone. Have I told a customer I am not selling them a particular phone, yes. A customer came to me wanting the iPhone because her sister and her mother had it. I asked her some questions and found out she does not like surfing the web on her phone and says she does not want to do it in the future. I simply said I will not sell you a phone that requires a 30 dollar data charge rather you use it or not. She was pleased and simply told her mother why she was not getting an iPhone. I use the Storm for personal use and I hate reps who sell what they use. Have I turned people down from the storm, yes. Have I told them all the bed things about the Storm, yes. Why? Because I am an open and honest person who values every customer who I sell a phone to, I do not want to be that guy the customer looks back at and say "why did he sell me this useless phone."

You ask me why I hate the iPhone so much, its because customers do not look into this phone to make sure its for them and the reps sure do not challenge the customer calls all they care about is a sale. I get customers coming to me asking me why their phone can not do this or that or hey can you please help my phone do this. I have to look at them in a nice way and explain why their iPhone does not do this or that. Turn them away from Stereo Bluetooth headsets and explain why their phone can not use it. Then I get those customers who feel their phone can walk on water so I have to prove to them that it can not perform a certain task so they know I am not lying to them and that the "Apple" rep misinformed them. Yep I have had customers come to me and tell me that the Apple rep told them their phone supports stereo BT.

[Gibsohnn]

Keep in mind, that the PRE is not going to be a comparison to the iPhone so much in what it does as a phone, but more for what it does for the network it is released on. Much of the talk I have heard is not whether the iPhone is, or is not, a good phone, but for what it DID DO for ATT subscriber base and for their ARPU. Now the question becomes for the PRE...is it THE phone that stops the bleeding at Sprint, and continues to raise ARPU and keeps the company viable. That is what I have read coming from NY from a company/investment perspective in all of this.

For anyone who argues that Apple charges too much, I'd agree, but I love their stuff. And it's not just all about look/feel/ease of use. What Apple really does, and does extremely well, is turn entire industries upside down with one stupid tiny device. Look at what iTunes did to the way we buy music. The way we listen to music. Why did auto companies have to start advertising on the window sticker it has an "ipod jack"?! The iPhone revolutionized the idea in American Wireless of full touch-screen cell phones with loads of unbelievably useless features that do only one thing...make life SUPER convenient. This lead Sprint/VZN to start going with HTC's touch screen phones to make an effort at competing. If anyone thinks that the Instinct wasn't a direct step-child of the iPhone, you're living under a rock.

Now for price, yea, Apple's way up there. But for what Apple does, can do, and will continue to do to entire old, stodgy, boring industries...there is NO ONE better out there. Really, the only place Apple tried to innovate and didn't have a big impact was with the Apple TV. Past that, they started a full-out revolution in music and wireless. And THAT is the one point no one can argue.

[TextMailManiac]

If you in fact were waiting for a bubble to burst (similar to many "analysts" prior to Apple's Q4 results announcement) you might be waiting for a while...

The Apple bubble is bursting right on schedule -- Apple sales collapsed 30% in the last four months:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/daves-download/2009/2/19/apple-mac-quality-doesnt-sell-in-hard-times.html?msg=1

Reports show that Apple's Mac sales are suffering more than competitors as consumers pinch their pennies, even as consumers love their Macs more than competitors.

NPD Group says Apple sales have fallen more than 30 percent over the past four months, according to ChannelWeb.

Apple is overpriced.

It sells the same hardware everyone else sells, for 2x to 5x the price.

It's not going to do well in a recession.

In a recession, it's all about capability and value, not "brand" and "cachet."

Apple's collapsing sales are already demonstrating this.

And please, no spin Apple's poor performance -- if Sprint had posted a 30%+ decline in a single quarter, or if Microsoft lost 30% of its sales, Apple people would be declaring their deaths. Apple's in free fall against its competitors.

Apple advocates should focus on encouraging Apple to reduce its insane prices and remove all the restrictions it places on the use of its devices, not attacking Palm -- who are bringing much needed performance and value to the marketplace.

[jschu22]

The Apple bubble is bursting right on schedule -- Apple sales collapsed 30% in the last four months:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/daves-download/2009/2/19/apple-mac-quality-doesnt-sell-in-hard-times.html?msg=1



Apple is overpriced.

It sells the same hardware everyone else sells, for 2x to 5x the price.

It's not going to do well in a recession.

In a recession, it's all about capability and value, not "brand" and "cachet."

Apple's collapsing sales are already demonstrating this.

And please, no spin Apple's poor performance -- if Sprint had posted a 30%+ decline in a single quarter, or if Microsoft lost 30% of its sales, Apple people would be declaring their deaths. Apple's in free fall against its competitors.

Apple advocates should focus on encouraging Apple to reduce its insane prices and remove all the restrictions it places on the use of its devices, not attacking Palm -- who are bringing much needed performance and value to the marketplace.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10147190-37.html

Bubble bursting? That's a bit on the dramatic side, even more moderate mac-haters (don't worry, I haven't interpreted your remarks as anything less than uber-hate) would say so. Don't worry about me trying to spin anything, beyond what you just did in that very paragraph. The 30% decline you reference is for ONE segment of Apple's business so of course Sprint or Microsoft wouldn't see a decline on that significance. Apple didn't either, get your facts straight.

No one has ever said that Apple products are cheap, inexpensive or value-priced. This isn't news to anyone and certainly not Apple themselves. Of course they may struggle during challenging economic times but that certainly doesn't signal the beginning of the end. Show me a higher-end company that has been "recession-proof" or even an electronics company that isn't having a hard time.

Are you even remotely aware of what is going on in the world or have you been too busy looking for anti-Apple propaganda? Why are you doing this anyway?

[ScrapMaker]

ugh, who cares about Apple? This phone isn't even intended to compete with the iPhone...

Neither side can convince the other of anything... That's the way it's been since the beginning of time. No point in arguing, and this thread is pointless.

[NM08SRT8]

Just like the Instinct wasn't supposed to, but people LOVE comparing everything to the iPhone.. I mean, w t f.. Should we compare my Xbox 360 to the iPhone now since it plays games? Or my home phone to the iPhone because it has a phone? Or my computer to the iPhone because they both do eMail?

This iPhone crap needs to stop. I've had one, and I still don't see the big deal about the damn device.

[ScrapMaker]

To each their own, but I don't see why we need to compare every device to the iPhone. If it was intended as a direct competitor, then by all means...

[NM08SRT8]

Yeah, I mean Sprint is the one who took a shot at the iPhone with it's Instinct. I'm guessing while it does a little more than the iPhone, it just didn't deliver. The Pre, people are now starting to say this could be THE biggest competitor to the iPhone out of any device.

My guess could be because the same guy who designed OS X for the iPhone, has designed and made webOS.

[jschu22]

It's never going to stop because there are too many that are insecure about their phone or a future phone they may buy. I know, it's a stupid concept but it's big reason as to why this debate goes on and on. Those of you that are making comparisons can go ahead and dispute this but when was the last time you witnessed someone admitting to their insecurities?

[NM08SRT8]

It's never going to stop because there are too many that are insecure about their phone or a future phone they may buy. I know, it's a stupid concept but it's big reason as to why this debate goes on and on. Those of you that are making comparisons can go ahead and dispute this but when was the last time you witnessed someone admitting to their insecurities?
I would say, people who arent fanboys, stuck up, or into themselves or their product/brand. I honestly wouldn't defend my device saying mine is better than "yours" only because I know each device has a specialty that it excels in over others, doesn't make them better or worse, just different.

[jschu22]

I would say, people who arent fanboys, stuck up, or into themselves or their product/brand.

Unfortunately there is a very large number of these very people that frequent this site. Whether it's here or one that's Apple-related these are not unbiased, subjective points of view. It certainly isn't everyone, but they can be the loudest voices.

I just wish that everyone here that has said "my friend says the iPhone is ...." or "people with iPhones all think ...." would take a moment and realize that "those people" do not have a monopoly on having their heads up their...

[ScrapMaker]

Let's just agree that everyone else is a pompous *******, and that the Pre/WebOS devices *COULD* be really awesome--and may or MAY NOT be released before June.

Then everyone will be happy.

[jschu22]

I can agree with that.

[Mbrahv0528]

From Oxford's Dictionary:

worth
• noun 1- the value or merit of someone or something.

To you, that computer isn't "worth" it but I find it hard to believe there are thousands and thousands of consumers out there that spend their money on that very product based solely on how pretty it is.

Lol. You can't seriously believe that? It's not hard to believe, because that's what is happening, anything with the name Apple or the moniker "i" will sell simply because of the name, period. I fell for it when I bought my iTouch, I got sucked right in..awesome device..worth the price tag? No.

[Mbrahv0528]

Yes, but they will make more MONEY, by requiring the plan.

Also, don't forget that the Pre will be on most major carriers--not just Sprint.

I don't think the Pre, (all combined,) has a chance in hell at even breaking 25% of the sales of the iPhone... but that doesn't mean it's not a more powerful device... it just means that Apple users are typically very loyal, and won't change, regardless.

It's like showing an iPod devotee something like a Creative Zen... costs less, smaller, more functional, non-proprietary software--etc... but the Apple user will tell you it's utter crap... At least the ones I've dealt with.

I went in to buy a Zen at Fry's, and the sales guy was a MacHead, or whatever they call themselves nowadays--anyways, he wouldn't stop bothering me... Kept trying to show me the iPod selection that cost more and offered less... he was honestly confused as to why I would not want an Apple product.

So, turning it around back to my original point... no, the Pre won't get anywhere near Apple's figures--because of marketing and loyal customers... Simple as that.



The Pre will NOT be on any other major carrier in the US (for the first 6 months anyway), Sprint has certain sales goals to meet ala the Storm on verizon, if they meet the goals, SPrint gets another 6 months of exclusivity. Also, it almost assuredly will NOT require a SEP, why people keep fostering this rumor is beyond me.

[ScrapMaker]

The Pre will NOT be on any other major carrier in the US (for the first 6 months anyway), Sprint has certain sales goals to meet ala the Storm on verizon, if they meet the goals, SPrint gets another 6 months of exclusivity. Also, it almost assuredly will NOT require a SEP, why people keep fostering this rumor is beyond me.

No you are right, it will only require an Everything plan. I believe even the SERO-Everything plans will work. Obviously, none of us really know what the scoop is until Sprint makes some more announcements.

[Mbrahv0528]

No you are right, it will only require an Everything plan. I believe even the SERO-Everything plans will work. Obviously, none of us really know what the scoop is until Sprint makes some more announcements.

No, I'm saying it almost assuredly will not require a new plan period. And no none of us do know for certain, yet the "Guilty until proven innocent" attitude is silly. For every new phone since the Instinct (you know the ONLY phone to require this because of the Visual voice mail) there has been one a thread about this and this silly rampant speculation and panicky posters declaring they "would not be getting this phone".

[ScrapMaker]

No, I'm saying it almost assuredly will not require a new plan period. And no none of us do know for certain, yet the "Guilty until proven innocent" attitude is silly. For every new phone since the Instinct (you know the ONLY phone to require this because of the Visual voice mail) there has been one a thread about this and this silly rampant speculation and panicky posters declaring they "would not be getting this phone".

We don't know FOR SURE... but we have a pretty dang good idea...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e360/ScrapMaker/Pre-caption.jpg

[BTSmith]

For every new phone since the Instinct (you know the ONLY phone to require this because of the Visual voice mail) there has been one a thread about this and this silly rampant speculation and panicky posters declaring they "would not be getting this phone".

It isn't silly in this case though. The instinct and the Pre are from Sprints perspective and actions almost identical.

They are the only phones that Sprint and announced together with the heads of both companies at a major US industry event and the only ones where Hesse in the first couple of minutes emphasized everything plans and ARPU. Theya are th only phoens annoucned by both four months out or so.

There have been more than 200 sprint phones launched. None have been more identical in launch method and language used by sprint than tte instinct and the Pre.

[jschu22]

No, I'm saying it almost assuredly will not require a new plan period. And no none of us do know for certain, yet the "Guilty until proven innocent" attitude is silly.

Doesn't the second sentence contradict the first a bit?

[ScrapMaker]

Doesn't the second sentence contradict the first a bit?

I'm guessing he is saying that Sprint would be charged 'guilty' if they require an Everything plan.

As it stands, Sprint has said it requires an Everything plan, so if they were innocent until proven guilty, I'd say they would have to be found 'guilty' of NOT requiring such a plan.


That makes my head spin, so let's talk about something else ;)

[NM08SRT8]

I think he meant that he said, "I'm saying it almost assuredly will not require a new plan period" but then he says, "no one knows for certain"

That's what I'm thinkin he meant..