[Pre] GPS Features & Functionality

[laursifer]

This thread is for discussion on the Pre's built-in GPS functionality and GPS applications.

[INTERNATIONAL]

Can anyone comment on or provide a link to the possibility of talking on the phone while using the turn-by-turn GPS service? Its my understanding you cannot use data/internet and talk at the same time, unless on wifi.

I understand the general safety concerns and assume those concerns will likely prohibit that function. I look forward to the discussion.

Thanks!

[hongcho]

Does it have a true satellite GPS or just A-GPS? That wasn't clear in any of the current reports.

Did any Treos have a true satellite GPS?

Hong.

[laursifer]

Wirelessly posted (Palm Centro: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D062; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

Does it have a true satellite GPS or just A-GPS? That wasn't clear in any of the current reports.



Did any Treos have a true satellite GPS?



Hong.

Might as well get this over with now... the GPS vs aGPS explanation. But first of all you need to know that GPS uses satellites, period. There technically isn't such a thing that is specially-called "satellite GPS." Without satellites, there isn't GPS.



When you power on a GPS device it calls out in orbit to satellites to get what's called a "firstfix," I believe is the term, before it can start to do its magic. This can take 30 seconds or it can take minutes. All depends on your location and horizon, buildings in the ways, mountains and giant beanstalks.



aGPS (Assisted GPS) uses servers and satellites. With cell phones, these servers chat with each other, knowing your general location, and feed that to the satellites. It's kind of like you always have a constant semi-fix on your location before the satellites get involved. This leads to much faster location-fixing, it's lighter on your device's processing, buildings & beanstalks are less of an interference and it also doesn't devour as much of your battery. All because of that server assistance.



So aGPS is a GOOD thing. That's what we WANT our phones to have. And so far, all sources point to yes, the Pre has aGPS.



And prior to this, Palm OS phones did not have any kind of GPS at all (I'm just assuming here you meant Palm when you said Treo... Pre is a Palm device; Treos are, I guess technically, Palm models or something). They required external Bluetooth GPS receivers. But with the Pre & webOS, it seems we're finally being given that delicious piece o' aGPS pie.

[Trinal]

Wirelessly posted (Treo 650: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D060; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

It's unclear if the Pre will have stand-alone GPS. While assisted GPS might be useful, forcing the Pre to only use assisted GPS makes it useless as soon as your Sprint CDMA phone is taken overseas somewhere you don't have coverage. That's a question Palm has not answered.

It would be extremely disappointing if they cripple it like the 800w.

[sfhub]

Might as well get this over with now... the GPS vs aGPS explanation. But first of all you need to know that GPS uses satellites, period. There technically isn't such a thing that is specially-called "satellite GPS." Without satellites, there isn't GPS.
Yup, this is exactly right.

Some people get confused about Google Maps My Location on the Centro and similar phones that don't have GPS. That doesn't use GPS at all. It uses cell tower info that is retrieved from the phone's radio to triangulate your position. Google makes it a little confusing because on phones that have GPS, once you enable the GPS, the feature for locating yourself is still called "My Location".

When you power on a GPS device it calls out in orbit to satellites to get what's called a "firstfix," I believe is the term, before it can start to do its magic. This can take 30 seconds or it can take minutes. All depends on your location and horizon, buildings in the ways, mountains and giant beanstalks.
To expand on what is going on, Firstfix can also be described as "downloading ephemeris and/or almanac".

Almanac is the orbital parameters for the SVs and gives the GPS a rough idea for where to look for SVs. It isn't super precise but on the other hand is usually good for a few months, but if the GPS has moved a few hundred miles or hasn't been turned on for a while, a new almanac needs to be downloaded. Every SV broadcasts almanac data for all SVs.

Ephemeris on the other hand is very precise SV information but is only good for 30 minutes. Each SV only broadcasts its own ephemeris info. Your standalone GPS will need to get ephemeris from 4 SVs to get a fix.

For standalone GPSs they need to get this info from the satellite themselves which can take a while because of weak signals and slow data rate. It can be especially long if you need a new almanac, because your GPS will need to do a sky search, then download a new almanac, then get ephemeris from 4 SVs.

For standalone GPS, a warm start is where your GPS has only been off less than 30 minutes, in which case no ephemeris download is necessary and fix is really fast. A cold start is where you have been off for more than 30 minutes, in which case you need to download ephemeris from at least 4 satellites. I don't know what they call expired almanac information but it is basically a really cold start and can take a while probably a couple of minutes depending on conditions.

One thing nice about Hybrid A-GPS systems is they can often get this information from servers on the data network instead of downloading from SVs. This can often lead to fix times as little as 3-5 seconds and often less than 15-30 seconds.

aGPS (Assisted GPS) uses servers and satellites. With cell phones, these servers chat with each other, knowing your general location, and feed that to the satellites. It's kind of like you always have a constant semi-fix on your location before the satellites get involved. This leads to much faster location-fixing, it's lighter on your device's processing, buildings & beanstalks are less of an interference and it also doesn't devour as much of your battery. All because of that server assistance.
Beyond the first fix differences, the main aGPS feature is your actual position is calculated in client-server mode. This allows position calculation with lower power and CPU requirements.

Traditional standalone GPS units are constantly calculating your position which uses CPU resources and thus power. The disadvantage of course is more powerful CPU needed and higher power requirements. The advantage is low latency instant access to position info and no network requirement.

A-GPS units send the GPS information gathered to servers on the network. These servers calculate your position and send it back to the phone/device. The advantage here is you can do GPS positioning with less powerful CPUs and the power usage is less since you don't need to calculate positioning all the time. The disadvantage is there is higher latency and you won't have access to your position as quickly as well as not having positioning info at all when there is no network.

So aGPS is a GOOD thing. That's what we WANT our phones to have. And so far, all sources point to yes, the Pre has aGPS.
Personally I like having aGPS features for initial fix then on optional switch to standalone mode for those apps that need it. If you have a GPS app that has all the maps already downloaded, it makes more sense to work in standalone mode. If you are using Google Maps where you need a data connection anyway, then it makes more sense to work in aGPS mode.

The problem with the 800w was they messed up the implementation and you had no way of going from aGPS to full standalone GPS mode even though the chipset should have allowed it. It appears the phone can work for a shortime without phone signal (meaning it is in standalone GPS mode) but after some few minutes, the GPS stops working, which means it has some aGPS assist remnants still turned on. This contrasts with the HTC mogul/touch where you could choose (through registry) whether you wanted to switch to use standalone GPS and it would work with no network available (though first fix would take longer)

[Awake]

From Engadget:

As much as we've heard about (and played with) the Pre this month, there's still a whole lot yet to be revealed about webOS; Palm clearly has a little bit of work left to finish and polish the platform, so what we know so far has much more to do with UI glitz, glamor, and flashiness than the actual trench warfare of using a phone day in and day out. Yahoo's Tech Ticker had a chance to chat with Elevation Partners' Roger McNamee -- a figure whose cash infusion has been central to Palm's survival this past year or so as they've raced to throw together the Pre -- and in between Houdini-esque reveals of seemingly hundreds of smartphones on his person, he's slipped a couple cool location-oriented features we can expect in webOS. First up, the phone can be configured to check out your calendar every morning and automatically download all sorts of information about the people, places, and companies you're going to visit, including maps -- an especially awesome feature if you're dealing with spotty 3G coverage. Even cooler, though, has to be the lateness notifier -- the phone uses GPS to determine where you are, compares it to where you're supposed to be at the moment, and if it figures out that you're screwed, it'll let you know. What's more, it can automatically email people to let them know that you've screwed up (just blame it on the traffic -- we always do). Follow the break for Tech Ticker's full interview.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/19/palm-investor-mcnamee-details-pres-neat-location-based-features/#continued

[parazitu22]

Pretty cool stuff! It's nice to see palm include a bunch of useful apps and not just waiting for developers to pick up the missing pieces. The location apps sound really cool and actually useful! It's a shame that phones these days have some great eye candy apps that basically do nothing. Kudos to palm!

[Awake]

Exactly, when Apple created the iphone they partly wanted to take some of the market share from Rim that did not happen. Rim wanted to lure the iphone enthusiast by putting a WOW factor into the Storm, that did not happen. Android expected to put a dent into Apple and Rim with their OS, too many customer complaints has made Android take a back seat to Apple and Rim, although I do like Android over Apple and Rim. However, hearing about the number of exchanges with replacement devices is not good.

WebOS all things good made great in one device and then some.

[kg4icg]

gps receivers do not call out to the sats, they listen for them and use the signals they receive to plot your position. there is no cross talk between phone and gps sats.

[ScrapMaker]

Wirelessly posted (Treo 650: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D060; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

It's unclear if the Pre will have stand-alone GPS. While assisted GPS might be useful, forcing the Pre to only use assisted GPS makes it useless as soon as your Sprint CDMA phone is taken overseas somewhere you don't have coverage. That's a question Palm has not answered.

It would be extremely disappointing if they cripple it like the 800w.

You are thinking of cell-based triangulation like the iPhone 2G used. Not aGPS.

[ScrapMaker]

I love this feature... and it just lets us all know that even more cool things are around the corner...

[sfhub]

You are thinking of cell-based triangulation like the iPhone 2G used. Not aGPS.
No he is not. aGPS requires the usage of a server on the network, which of course presumes you have network coverage.

cell-based triangulation also uses a server on the network but is done at the application level through information gathered from the phone's radio. It is less accurate, but obviously also requires a network. The implementation is different from aGPS.

Standalone GPS does all the location calculation from gathering GPS information to calculating your position on the phone and require no phone signal to work (if implemented properly).

aGPS with fallback to Standalone GPS if network is not available will basically have the same characteristics as true Standalone GPS plus the possibility for enhanced behavior when phone network is available.

[Trinal]

You are thinking of cell-based triangulation like the iPhone 2G used. Not aGPS.

I'm not thinking of anything beyond standalone GPS. Whatever else Palm wants to add on top of that I would be in favor of, particularly if it helps you get a faster location lock. However, if I turn my phone on in Tokyo or anywhere else in the world where I won't get a CDMA signal, will the GPS work?

If yes = good, standalone enabled.

If no = horrible choice on Palm's part where I may reconsider getting this phone.

We can then debate the merits of various assist modes and third-party map providers so you can actually do something with the GPS information, but first we need to get the standalone enabled/crippled resolved.

[ScrapMaker]

I'm not thinking of anything beyond standalone GPS. Whatever else Palm wants to add on top of that I would be in favor of, particularly if it helps you get a faster location lock. However, if I turn my phone on in Tokyo or anywhere else in the world where I won't get a CDMA signal, will the GPS work?

If yes = good, standalone enabled.

If no = horrible choice on Palm's part where I may reconsider getting this phone.

We can then debate the merits of various assist modes and third-party map providers so you can actually do something with the GPS information, but first we need to get the standalone enabled/crippled resolved.

yes, it will work fine... if it's a-gps, that is...

[BTSmith]

yes, it will work fine... if it's a-gps, that is...

No you are still 100% incorrect after having the prior two posters (trinal, sfhub) correctly clarify.

CDMA aGPS only is crippled GPS limited to 5% of the planet.
Standalone GPS works everywhere.

This is an important issue:
http://discussion.treocentral.com/palm-pre/175283-pre-gps-doa.html

Some phones are both standalone and aGPS (HTC touch Pro) and some are crippled GPS with aGPS only (Treo 800w)

Standalone GPS is a value. aGPS only is a negative

[BTSmith]

[SIZE=1]So aGPS is a GOOD thing. That's what we WANT our phones to have. And so far, all sources point to yes, the Pre has aGPS.

....

And prior to this, Palm OS phones did not have any kind of GPS at all (I'm just assuming here you meant Palm when you said Treo... Pre is a Palm device; Treos are, I guess technically, Palm models or something). They required external Bluetooth GPS receivers. But with the Pre & webOS, it seems we're finally being given that delicious piece o' aGPS pie.

1) Also very very wrong. aGPS only is a bad thing.

2) The Pre is hardly the first palm with aGPS. The 800w has agps, and there was a big uproar when it was discovered GPS standalone was disabled on that mode (despite Palm falsely advertising standalone GPS (no carrier connection required).

Palm finally got it right on the Treo Pro which has BOTH standalone GPS and aGPS. Pre maybe crippled by having aGPS only, we don't know.

[menmyPro]

Why'd the chicken cross the road?

Cause it's aGPS wasn't talkin to the servin thingy
and the GPS was tellin it to go left.


That's EXACTLY what this whole dang post was worth! Horse Doodoo!
I thought some one actually knew if the Pre was aGPS or GPS stand alone, and all I got was a danged chicken runnin around with it's head cut off!!!!!!!!

[ScrapMaker]

No you are still 100% incorrect after having the prior two posters (trinal, sfhub) correctly clarify.

CDMA aGPS only is crippled GPS limited to 5% of the planet.
Standalone GPS works everywhere.

This is an important issue:
http://discussion.treocentral.com/palm-pre/175283-pre-gps-doa.html

Some phones are both standalone and aGPS (HTC touch Pro) and some are crippled GPS with aGPS only (Treo 800w)

Standalone GPS is a value. aGPS only is a negative

Do you realize that your are spewing utter nonsense?

[sfhub]

yes, it will work fine [in Tokyo]... if it's a-gps, that is...
Do you realize that your are spewing utter nonsense?
Could you explain how a Sprint phone with A-GPS only will have GPS that works fine in Tokyo?

How exactly would it calculate your position when it has no data connection to servers that calculate the position and/or provide almanac/ephemeris data?

[sfhub]

Some phones are both standalone and aGPS (HTC touch Pro) and some are crippled GPS with aGPS only (Treo 800w)

Standalone GPS is a value. aGPS only is a negative
Well aGPS is better than noGPS :)

I agree that aGPS+standalone is the better combination and anything less than that introduces compromises.

[laursifer]

1) Also very very wrong. aGPS only is a bad thing.

2) The Pre is hardly the first palm with aGPS. The 800w has agps, and there was a big uproar when it was discovered GPS standalone was disabled on that mode (despite Palm falsely advertising standalone GPS (no carrier connection required).

Palm finally got it right on the Treo Pro which has BOTH standalone GPS and aGPS. Pre maybe crippled by having aGPS only, we don't know.

You either mis-read or flat-out didn't grasp the concept of that part of my post. I said prior to the Palm Pre, Palm OS phones didn't have any kind of GPS at all. The Pro and 800w (which are Treos not Palms) are Windows Mobile OS phones. To say aGPS only is a bad thing is, well, absolutely wrong (actually I like ScrapMaker's "utter nonsense" better). aGPS with GPS as the fallback is best, but on a mobile phone, aGPS only is better than GPS only. Unless you prefer slow and inaccurate GPS. I understand that requiring a data connection for aGPS can sometimes be unfortunate, but unless your main use for GPS is to navigate yourself through a cave, needing a data connection shouldn't be an issue for the mass market (and that's who the designers and programmers are thinking about when they decide what to do--they could not care less about the rare few who want to use GPS in areas that don't have data signals).

Here are some things to clarify for everyone what aGPS is and why it's a GOOD thing:
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_Phone

[ScrapMaker]

Could you explain how a Sprint phone with A-GPS only will have GPS that works fine in Tokyo?

How exactly would it calculate your position when it has no data connection to servers that calculate the position and/or provide almanac/ephemeris data?

That would be because it also communicates to the satellites.

A true, properly-working aGPS phone on Spring, (I don't fully believe that the WM phones use it right,) can use triangulation, REAL GPS, and a host of other techniques to get signal.

That is why the Instinct and the M1 can get locks in less than one second, while my Touch cannot get locks at all in the same places, (the server room I am typing from right now, for example.)


I wasn't aware that so many people were uninformed about aGPS. I wonder if people are confusing it with systems that AT&T used, and the way the iPhone worked. That is not how Sprint works.

[BTSmith]

Could you explain how a Sprint phone with A-GPS only will have GPS that works fine in Tokyo?

It won't and you understadn so don't bother the poster claiming it does as he doesnt know GPS from GSM. :lol:

[BTSmith]

Do you realize that your are spewing utter nonsense?

Spewing nonsense? Youa re now seriously tolling. I was trying to help you since you were 100% wrong and totally mixed up.

Just read read this:http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html
before insulting people who are corect when you are incorrect. Apoligy accepted.

[BTSmith]

A true, properly-working aGPS phone on Spring, (I don't fully believe that the WM phones use it right,) can use triangulation, REAL GPS, and a host of other techniques to get signal.
What? you are making people laugh! You dont use triangulation to get a singnal! lol!
WM devices do it best. Tha tis why actually, if you look into a lot of top of the line dedicated GPS devices, eg Navigoin, you wil find wM running unerneath!

This is also why the millions of units sold of Garmin and TomTom for smartphoens are all Windows mobile!


Ok What sprint signal is that in tokyo?

Take a chair and read: GPS vs aGPS on smartphones 101.

AGPS uses any number of dependencies on the carrier. It can be simple such as use the carrier to get accurate time, Ephemeris or almanac, or the inreasingly rare case of a handheld device having satellite antenna but not sufficeint calculation ability, the carrier can do the calculations based on the handlheld device's contact with satellites and return it with an ip type connection. ALL OF THIS REQUIRES CONTACT WITH A CARRIER

Standalone GPS only requires a smartphone have a proper GPS receiver getting data from satellites and sufficient calculating ability to calculate position. Standalone, and the equivalent term "autonomous GPS"

Advantages of Standalone GPS on your phone:
- works in 100% of the planet
- works when you retire the device from carrier service
- works in natural disasters that kill phone systerms (katrina)
Disadvantage of having only standalone:
- ca take longer to get TTFF (Time to first fix), eg 50 seconds instead of 10

Advantages of aGPS
- Faster time to first fix in some circumstances
Disadvantages of aGPS
- Tied to carrier or carrier type signal. In sprints case that means it wont work in 95% of planet

Best type of system on a smartphone: aGPS + Standalone

Examples:
Smartphone with aGPS only: Treo 800w (requirement for accurate time assit, Instinct (server assists)
Smartphone with aGPS plus Standalone GPS: HTC Touch Pro, Treo Pro

[tbot]

wow, such a heated discussion all stating pretty much the same thing...interesting

[BTSmith]

To say aGPS only is a bad thing is, well, absolutely wrong
lol, utter nonsense, and I am going to show to you
a) polls showing users prefer both, and want both on the Pre!
b) statemntss from articles you quoted saying having both is more valuble, adn
c) Current Advertising from Sprint aying having Standalong GPS adds is an extra value -- specifically on Palm phones!


the article you quoted says aGPS only is a worse value than having both.
"Standalone mode is important. This means you do not need the carrier network at all to use GPS and usually you can install any GPS mapping software to boot. "

And here, look at the poll results on the Pre itself:
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html
The consensus for 50% of users (more when you consider informed users), crippling a phone to aGPS only is a bad thing.

If you have the GPS chip and antenna to get the signals (and the pre does) and you have the calculating ability to calculate position (and the pre does) the only reason to have aGPS only is to move people to carrier paid solutions

Agps only is a lesser value than the increasing trend to give both aGPS and Standalone GPS

needing a data connection shouldn't be an issue for the mass market

The poll says otherwise. Sprint and Palm say you are wrong.

Sprint and Palm both tout having the addition of Standalone GPS as a value in advertsing

These are sales fact sheets given to Spritn salespeople to tell them what to pitch! read lower left:
http://www.wmexperts.com/sites/wmexperts.com/files/articleimages/Dieter%20Bohn/2009/01/sprinttreoproslides/pro2.jpg

Sprint (and this is Sprintusers.com, right, related to users of Sprint?) touting the specific value of Standalone in addition to aGPS!

Lastly If you don't expect to use the phone off data network -- why is there wifi?? Are you going to say, "Who needs wifi, except those who live in a cave?" Is that your assertion? Palm and Sprint have advertised units as having both as a better value than aGPS only fo r the same reasons why people demanded and got wifi

[BTSmith]

wow, such a heated discussion all stating pretty much the same thing...interesting

because two people, , including, incredibly a mod, made factually incorrect statements, and when three or four of us who know tried to educate them, they continued to confuse readers and make false satements.

[ScrapMaker]

I'm sorry BTSmith but you are unbelievably wrong about aGPS.

aGPS is assisted GPS. So that's triangulation AND GPS.

aGPS uses network information to give you a quick lock, and then the true GPS chip to pull in the exact location. Typically the network information is pretty damn accurate in the first place though.

http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_Phone

The articles that you quoted tell an entirely different story.

"A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server. Alternatively, it may use standard non-assisted GPS, which is slower and less accurate, but does not lead to network charges for data traffic, which can be considerable."

I don't see why we are even arguing over something that is widely known. I assumed to be common knowledge.

aGPS is always better...always. You just have your terms mixed up, since aGPS is also standalone.

[sfhub]

That would be because it also communicates to the satellites.

A true, properly-working aGPS phone on Spring, (I don't fully believe that the WM phones use it right,) can use triangulation, REAL GPS, and a host of other techniques to get signal.

That is why the Instinct and the M1 can get locks in less than one second, while my Touch cannot get locks at all in the same places, (the server room I am typing from right now, for example.)


I wasn't aware that so many people were uninformed about aGPS. I wonder if people are confusing it with systems that AT&T used, and the way the iPhone worked. That is not how Sprint works.
You are confused. If you have no phone service, aGPS by itself will not work. aGPS with fallback to standlone GPS would work.

All GPS phones (standalone and aGPS) receive data from GPS satellites. However, aGPS doesn't calculate the position on the phone, it sends the GPS data to servers on the network to calculate the position. Unless it has a fallback to standlone GPS mode, once those servers are not accessable, no more position information is available. Receiving data from the GPS satellites, by itself, will *not* give you any position information. You need to do calculations using formulas to figure out where you are.

[sfhub]

I said prior to the Palm Pre, Palm OS phones didn't have any kind of GPS at all.
That's not strictly true. All E911 CDMA phones have aGPS. PalmOS phones just didn't have any way for apps to access the aGPS system.
To say aGPS only is a bad thing is, well, absolutely wrong (actually I like ScrapMaker's "utter nonsense" better). aGPS with GPS as the fallback is best, but on a mobile phone, aGPS only is better than GPS only. Unless you prefer slow and inaccurate GPS.
Well I don't think aGPS only is a bad thing. It is certainly better than no GPS (that an app can access), but whether it is "better" than standalone GPS only really depends on your application. If you use it for driving standalone GPS is better. If you use it to figure out where you are periodically, I think aGPS is a better solution, assuming you have signal. The only "slow" part about standalone GPS is the first fix where it needs to download almanac/ephemeris data, which is a one time 30-60 second operation. After that the fix is within 1-2 seconds if your ephemeris has not expired and it certainly isn't "slow" to calculate your position ongoing. It is actually quite fast because all the position calculations are done on the phone itself rather than sending data out to the network to calculate the position. This makes it a good fit for driving where you want low latency for the position info but don't mind a one time slower first fix when you start driving the first time in the day. The comment about inaccurate is basically in the eye of the beholder. aGPS could be more accurate but it might not be as well, it depends on the conditions. Regardless standalone GPS is plenty accurate for driving and most any app a consumer would need.
I understand that requiring a data connection for aGPS can sometimes be unfortunate, but unless your main use for GPS is to navigate yourself through a cave, needing a data connection shouldn't be an issue for the mass market (and that's who the designers and programmers are thinking about when they decide what to do--they could not care less about the rare few who want to use GPS in areas that don't have data signals).
If you look at Sprint coverage map for the US there are many areas of no coverage. I always lose signal in multiple areas for when going to the ski resorts or national parks. If I wanted to use an aGPS-only phone for navigation, I would be driving blind for those no-signal areas. Not very good for navigation.

Now if I just wanted to use google maps to figure out where I was once in a while, then the coverage holes would be annoying but wouldn't be as big a deal. For navigation, you really want to know where you are at all times with constant updates, something aGPS alone cannot provide absent of phone coverage.

[sfhub]

aGPS uses network information to give you a quick lock, and then the true GPS chip to pull in the exact location. Typically the network information is pretty damn accurate in the first place though.
...
aGPS is always better...always. You just have your terms mixed up, since aGPS is also standalone.
aGPS was created by SnapTrack. Qualcomm bought SnapTrack and integrated aGPS into their chipset to satisfy E911. A lot of the way aGPS works goes back to the original purpose but they have since made modifications to make it better, including fallback to standalone GPS. Phones going back many years, probably around 8 years all have aGPS for E911 purposes. Recently more of these phones are exposing their GPS position info (both aGPS and, in some cases, standalone GPS) to user apps which can use that information to do wonderful things. People were asking for these interfaces since the beginning, but the APIs didn't exist so even though your phone had aGPS (and possibly standalone GPS), it could only be used for E911.

aGPS-only (vs aGPS+standalone GPS) means an implementation must have a phone network to work. Either it must get the almanac/ephemeris from the network or have a server on the network calculate position, or both. The early E911/aGPS implementations used the network for both. If an implementation required neither, then it would have standalone GPS, and thus would not be aGPS-only. The newer applications of aGPS+standalone can use aGPS for just almanac/ephemeris for fast first fix then switch to standalone GPS for position calculation on the phone itself.

What we as consumers care about is not whether a chipset could theoretically calculate the position locally on the phone. What we care about is whether the specific implementation can do so. While a modern Qualcomm CDMA chipset often can do both aGPS and standalone GPS, we have seen that just because the chipset can do something, it doesn't mean the implementation on a specific phone *will* do both and that is the point of BTSmith is making, citing the 800w as an example of a phone with a chipset that can do both aGPS and standalone, but an implementation that is aGPS-only, meaning GPS (for your apps) stops working once you lose signal (or shortly after you lose signal)

So there is an existence proof that you can have an aGPS phone which doesn't have standalone. Therefore your statement that "aGPS is also standalone" is provably wrong.

[ScrapMaker]

You guys are playing semantics...

When 99% of people refer to aGPS, they are referring to the modern phone that not just E911-capable. When a phone comes out, nowadays, that has "aGPS" it has both assisted, and non-assisted mode--regardless of whatever history lesson you can dig up.

http://www.instinct-samsung.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5fa3c039fc4ab81c700348b89133d3 ca&topic=1116.msg29184#msg29184

The same goes for my M1. The only problem is when you lose data/signal, you can't update maps anymore...

[sfhub]

When 99% of people refer to aGPS, they are referring to the modern phone that not just E911-capable. When a phone comes out, nowadays, that has "aGPS" it has both assisted, and non-assisted mode--regardless of whatever history lesson you can dig up.
The bottom line is
1) aGPS requires network
2) aGPS does not automatically imply standalone GPS
3) you are out of steam and obviously confused

[BTSmith]

I'm sorry BTSmith but you are unbelievably wrong about aGPS..

Standalone GPS plus aGPS is the more common thing people demand. the aGPS only phones are considerably less userful.

Your statement that aGPS equals standalone GPS means you did not read a thing form the articles you quoted :hee:

Pols show it people prefer Standalone pus aGPS to the crippled agps only phones. . It is a HUGE benifit because it avoides the walled garden Verizon used trying to force peopel to use the carrier services.

I have worked with GPS since it was invented. You are totally wrong and don't know even the basics.and that is why several users here corrected you unbelievable poor knowledge. It is getting silly now.

aGPS is assisted GPS. So that's triangulation AND GPS.

Wrong. aGPS is any method that requires network assets.

Just getting the time from the network time server is an aGPS method. (the one used in the Sprint 800w), getting the ephemris is a an aGPS method. gettting the almanac is an agps method.

Lol, triagulation. did you just learn that word? all gps, agps, egps, standalone and autonomous gps and new augmented GPS all use triagulation (technically trilaterization anyway) .

So saying "triangulation is a tautology -- all GPS uses it.

aGPS uses network information to give you a quick lock, and then the true GPS chip to pull in the exact location. Typically the network information is pretty damn accurate in the first place though.

Your second sentence proves you have zero knowledge on the subject.
What network information? time, Ephemris? almanac? these are for helping you get the satellites, not for calculating position!

You just have your terms mixed up, since aGPS is also standalone.

Lol. You just said you know ZERO they are EXCLISIVE terms. agPS is exactly not standalone. aGPS requires a carrier signal. Standalone does not. Standalone means it does not require a network signal and cant do anything with a network signal or data. aGPS not only uses it but requires it. That is why having both is a value, is common on more advanced phones and not doen on crippled phones designed to make you buy carrier services -- everyone but you understands this.

Look at the pre poll on whether people want aGPS plus standalone or the 100% agreed inferior aGPS only!

READ!

Look at the SPRINT ADVERTISING MATERIAL:
READ it

[BTSmith]

The bottom line is
1) aGPS requires network
2) aGPS does not automatically imply standalone GPS
3) you are out of steam and obviously confused

Exactly, aGPS only = lower value.

scrapmaker apparently just learned about aGPS a few days ago.

Lol he says agps = GPS. Sprint is emphatic it does not. Sprint itself specifically advertises standalone plus aGPS as a benefit over aGPS only in material for the Treo Pro and Touch pro!

Palm says it is not. Palm advertises standalone added to aGPS as a value added feature.

Polls on the upcoming pre on this EXACT issue: whether users want Standalone GPS plus agPS vs totally inferior aGPS only, show users want the uncrippled full Standalone plus aGPS vs aGPS only.

scrapmaker should go to TreoCentral/Precentral and explain to hundreds of engineers why they are wrong! :clap:

[BTSmith]

When 99% of people refer to aGPS, they are referring to the modern phone that not just E911-capable. .

FALSE . This is a PRE thread. When the MAJORITY of people have it explained to them they prefer the combination method as it is a much grater value. AGPS only is ok on dumbphones. on smartphones, everything is there (GPS chip, processor capable of doing calculations, GPS antenna) , it is a question of it it is enabled, or Stadnalone is disabled to drive money to the carrier. (like they used to do with bluetooth)

Where do you get 99%? LOL. Here is THE POLL on the subject for the PRE!
http://discussion.treocentral.com/palm-pre/175283-pre-gps-doa.html

Here is sprint adverting touting the benefit of having both! They know informed customers demand it! Why are thy putting it on advanced phoens if people if this 99% dont care!?
http://www.wmexperts.com/sites/wmexperts.com/files/articleimages/Dieter%20Bohn/2009/01/sprinttreoproslides/pro2.jpg

Click the links and learn something

[ScrapMaker]

Every Sprint GPS phone using A-GPS that I have owned, works without cellular signal. To be frank, you come across as immediately being pompous. You need to calm down and realize that modern-day Sprint A-GPS chips typically do assist as well as standalone. This is easily the dumbest argument I've witnessed, let alone participated in. If you say Sprint A-GPS phones don't do standalone as well, then clearly that is true. Thread over.

[tbot]

:D this is entertaining!!!!

[Trinal]

Every Sprint GPS phone using A-GPS that I have owned, works without cellular signal. To be frank, you come across as immediately being pompous. You need to calm down and realize that modern-day Sprint A-GPS chips typically do assist as well as standalone. This is easily the dumbest argument I've witnessed, let alone participated in. If you say Sprint A-GPS phones don't do standalone as well, then clearly that is true. Thread over.

Haven't checked in in a while. I hope Palm realizes they did something stupid in the past (i.e. Treo 800w). I'm not an expert in the subject of GPS by any stretch of the imagination but from what others have reported it's clear the Treo 800w has assisted GPS only. Go off the Sprint grid and you have no more GPS access. I can tell you there are areas that I drive through on my way to work where I lose a Sprint signal and this is in the middle of a major US metropolitan area. There is no standalone GPS mode for the 800w. The Treo Pro fixes this fortunately.

I hope Sprint/Palm don't do something stupid where they cripple the Pre to requiring a network signal to make the GPS function at all. At present I already need to carry a GSM dumbphone for my overseas travel but having a wi-fi and standalone GPS enabled Palm Pre to use as a data/GPS device would be a significant improvement.

[ScrapMaker]

I doubt Palm would use an network-only GPS solution, with the competition as well as older phones supporting full aGPS.

[BTSmith]

I doubt Palm would use an network-only GPS solution, with the competition as well as older phones supporting full aGPS.
Lol you have it completely backwards and are using the terms backlwards.

Network only GPS is aGPS. There is no term such as "full aGPS." you meant the more advanced phones that have both Standalone GPS and aGPS.

Palm is the one with the history specifically did force network only on the very last phone they launched with Sprint the 800w.

Every Sprint GPS phone using A-GPS that I have owned, works without cellular signal.

That is why people noted your response not only factually wrong in every sense, technical and practical

I don't know what you have owned but this was a big issue in the very last Sprint top smartphone phone to be released, the 800w where the Standalone GSP is disabled without a cellular signal: ie forced aGPS only.

Again you say it is semantics. This was one of the first polls on the most visited Pre and Palm site oriented forum: precentral/treocenteral.

It is obviously a serious question.

[ScrapMaker]

To be honest, I don't really think it is a serious question. Cell phone GPS is normally used to look up POIs or do some quick navigation... Most people will not have a problem with it requiring network, (which in reality no one is going to load a 3rd-party GPS program anyways--maps included on disk.)

Almost everyone uses Google Maps, Live Search, or Sprint Navigation/TeleNav. All require network anyways.

Even still, I would think the Pre is capable of both, even though the 800w, (people bought that?) did not have that capability.

[BTSmith]

I hope Sprint/Palm don't do something stupid where they cripple the Pre to requiring a network signal to make the GPS function at all. At present I already need to carry a GSM dumbphone for my overseas travel but having a wi-fi and standalone GPS enabled Palm Pre to use as a data/GPS device would be a significant improvement.

Yeah, that is why the question is whether the cloud means pure user advantage or whether it also means "walled garden" to drive revenue.

Verizon has a specific history of this. When Blutooth first made it onto phones standard bleutooth protocl allowed you to transfer any file via bluetooth. verizon was making $0.25 a pop to transfer photos and money for even public domain rigntones.

So there were motorola handsets with no removable memory card and no data output via cable that came out with bluetooth. Verizon asked motorola to remove the standard (and I mean legal standard protocol) that allowed pictures or data to be transferred. This is called walled garden.

GPS via cloud and GPS without cloud are both benefits. Sprint and Palm have done walled garden with GPS in the most recent past.

[sfhub]

To be honest, I don't really think it is a serious question. Cell phone GPS is normally used to look up POIs or do some quick navigation... Most people will not have a problem with it requiring network, (which in reality no one is going to load a 3rd-party GPS program anyways--maps included on disk.)
It's a serious question, just not for you.

I use TomTom on my Centro (w/ BT GPS) and Mogul (w/ internal GPS)

It's kind of neat on the Mogul since I can essentially get turn-by-turn voice instructions in Google Maps by running my standalone GPS app in the background with Google Maps in the foreground.

[ScrapMaker]

It's a serious question, just not for you.

I use TomTom on my Centro (w/ BT GPS) and Mogul (w/ internal GPS)

It's kind of neat on the Mogul since I can essentially get turn-by-turn voice instructions in Google Maps by running my standalone GPS app in the background with Google Maps in the foreground.

Why would you use Google Maps in the foreground? My mind is boggling... Wouldn't you rather use the better, turn-by-turn program?

I can bet that most people aren't going to want to use up 2GB of their 7.4GB storage to put on maps, when 99% of the time, they will be in cellular coverage.

With that being said, they already said in many CES videos that it has full aGPS, (yes, both standalone and assisted.)

So I think everyone will walk away happy here.

The only non-cloud-based GPS software I would potentially use is some sort of geocacher/logger. I like to log while I drive, so I have evidence against the crooked cops around here. The look on their faces when I tell them they are full of BS and I can prove it in a heartbeat is priceless.

[sfhub]

Why would you use Google Maps in the foreground? My mind is boggling... Wouldn't you rather use the better, turn-by-turn program?
Your mind is easily boggled. I *am* using the turn-by-turn standalone GPS program. I simply supplement it with satellite views, street views, most recent POIs, most recent street updates. I also get the benefit of the GPS working even if I'm out of a signal area and Google Maps stops working and also turn-by-turn voice directions, two negatives for Google Maps. I have immediate access to either app. Best of both worlds.

[ScrapMaker]

Seems that the best of both worlds would be what Garmin has done and made a hybrid system that stores a lot of info on the phone, but pulls info on-demand, if needed.

I'm surprised your Mogul can handle running two GPS programs at once! They are pretty heavy on resources...

[sfhub]

I'm surprised your Mogul can handle running two GPS programs at once! They are pretty heavy on resources...
Not really, Google Maps essentially just loads jpg panels over the network. The major work is done on the server. The GPS calculations are the same whether one app or two apps use the resulting positions. Screen draws are only necessary for the foreground app.

Unfortunately Garmin doesn't have satellite or street level views, which Google Maps does have.

[cornbread]

Anyone know if the GPS can be disabled?

[sfhub]

All the phones from Sprint that we've seen so far allow you to disable GPS for apps (if they support that feature). aGPS for E911 of course can't be disabled. I would imagine Palm Pre would follow that pattern.

Even though Pre seems like it integrates GPS into functionality more than any other phone, the core functionality shouldn't depend on GPS.

[BTSmith]

With that being said, they already said in many CES videos that it has full aGPS, (yes, both standalone and assisted.)

STOP confusing yourself and others. Again, yuou totally misxing up established terms "Full aGPS" does not imply standalone. The CES video video does nOT say it has standalone, it is not tested and to asserted.

The CES video you mentioned triggered a poll on treo central because no such thing was claimed and half the people said it better not be aGPS only.

The only non-cloud-based GPS software I would potentially use is some sort of geocacher/logger.
There are scores of non cloud applications -- useful if you have trued standalone GPS. You can take every picture you take with GPS coordinates

Seems that the best of both worlds would be what Garmin has done and made a hybrid system that stores a lot of info on the phone, but pulls info on-demand, if needed.
I'm surprised your Mogul can handle running two GPS programs at once! They are pretty heavy on resources...

Garnin costs a hefty monthly service charge.

If you have a Pre or a HTC WM phone you already own a device with a better processor, an equivalent screen and all the GPS hardware,. why would you need to devices and two service contracts? The dedicated units work no better adn are an added expense and a second piece f hardware to carry.

Running google maps and TomTom or Garmin is no problem on modern mobile phones, they take very little processing. You get infinite POI and autonomous turn by turn GPS navigation when you need it.

[ScrapMaker]

STOP confusing yourself and others. Again, yuou totally misxing up established terms "Full aGPS" does not imply standalone. The CES video video does nOT say it has standalone, it is not tested and to asserted.

The CES video you mentioned triggered a poll on treo central because no such thing was claimed and half the people said it better not be aGPS only.


There are scores of non cloud applications -- useful if you have trued standalone GPS. You can take every picture you take with GPS coordinates



Garnin costs a hefty monthly service charge.

If you have a Pre or a HTC WM phone you already own a device with a better processor, an equivalent screen and all the GPS hardware,. why would you need to devices and two service contracts? The dedicated units work no better adn are an added expense and a second piece f hardware to carry.

Running google maps and TomTom or Garmin is no problem on modern mobile phones, they take very little processing. You get infinite POI and autonomous turn by turn GPS navigation when you need it.

Wow, you're still going on about this? Go watch all the CES videos again, and you will have your answer. Several people mention "Full aGPS...yes assisted as well as stand-alone."

This topic and/or argument couldn't be beaten more to death if we tried.

Read the specs on this phone. Tell me what kind of GPS it has.

http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=1294

Then realize that it works perfectly fine without network assist.

Most modern claims of A-GPS are referring to a combination of network, as well as standalone. This is better than either by themselves.

To add fuel to the fire, the Instinct, Touch Pro, and Diamond ALL use A-GPS, and ALL work without network.

[tarpon6]

On the Plam website specs it has GPS with a little 1 next to it and then a disclaimer at the bottom.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/#tab2

GPS1 Built-in GPS

1 Within wireless coverage area only.

[ScrapMaker]

On the Plam website specs it has GPS with a little 1 next to it and then a disclaimer at the bottom.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/#tab2

GPS1 Built-in GPS

1 Within wireless coverage area only.

That is most likely the case, because they will only have Sprint Navigation/Telenav, which essentially limits you to coverage areas.

I would bet that sooner or later, they will have 3rd party GPS programs.

[sfhub]

I think people should just admit they don't really know if there will be standalone GPS calculation for the *implementation* in the Pre. It might be there or it might not. Playing word games isn't going to make the feature appear or disappear. If Palm came out with a completely unambiguous statement like "Pre will definitely support standalone GPS" then that is news that we could somewhat depend on (not that they couldn't back off that statement, but it would be less likely)

Good thing there is a 30-day return period so you can figure out for yourself whether the feature set meets your needs.

[ScrapMaker]

I think people should just admit they don't really know if there will be standalone GPS calculation for the *implementation* in the Pre. It might be there or it might not. Playing word games isn't going to make the feature appear or disappear. If Palm came out with a completely unambiguous statement like "Pre will definitely support standalone GPS" then that is news that we could somewhat depend on (not that they couldn't back off that statement, but it would be less likely)

Good thing there is a 30-day return period so you can figure out for yourself whether the feature set meets your needs.

Yes we really don't know either way, but from the remarks in the CES videos, from what the presenters were trained to say, they specifically said it has both modes. That's what I am going off of, and quite-frankly, don't give a damn if it doesn't have standalone, myself. I agree that we don't really know.

[tarpon6]

I don't really care, but will be nice if it has standalone, just for the purpose of using it as a back up on my boat. I was just pointing out what it says on Palm's website..

[BTSmith]

Go watch all the CES videos again, and you will have your answer. Several people mention "Full aGPS...yes assisted as well as stand-alone."
You are completely confused and have been throughout the thread.

1) Palm is the only company in the world that claims a carrier signal requirement can still mean Standalone GPS. So it doesn't matter what they claim because they are already on record in adverting, feature sheets etc claiming 800w has standalone when it tuned out not to. OK! Tha tis why Palm gave refunds to owners of 800w who requested them on the advertised Standalone not being there!

Most modern claims of A-GPS are referring to a combination of network, as well as standalone. This is better than either by themselves.
You are WRONG. what is that ", as standalone" lol
agps is a combination of network and satellites. that is the definition.

Standalone is satellites only. a HUGE value on the 95% of the earth where your network can't help you!

Good devices have both for a reason. aGPS on Sprint will only work on 5% of the planet, not even all of the US!

To add fuel to the fire, the Instinct, Touch Pro, and Diamond ALL use A-GPS, and ALL work without network.

Again your false presentation of aGPS vs Standalone is causing your to make such meaningless statements.

that is why you think Instinct has standalone GPS (?) lol,, when we know it doesn't.

handsets that have the valuable feature of both Standalone GPS and aGPS modes work off network! Phones with aGPS only do NOT

[Web]

I'm glad I just use my phone as a phone.... my life is soooo much simpler than all you folks...:)

[BTSmith]

I'm glad I just use my phone as a phone.... my life is soooo much simpler than all you folks...:)

you are in the smartphone area of the forums! :)

These smartphones are pitched as convergence devices replacing yourr need for dedicated devices.

[ScrapMaker]

BTSmith. My GPS works just fine without network, and Instinct users report the same. Not sure what your goal here is. We have already pointed out that we don't know for sure.

[BTSmith]

[QUOTE=ScrapMaker;2066661]BTSmith. My GPS works just fine without network,/QUOTE]

The reason why Instinct people find it doesn't work off network is the heart of the matter on the Pre.

Please read the OP's question! That is the question with the Pre

You confused what these modes were, You defined aGPS and Standalone GPS opposite of all the cited definitions, and several others tried to correct you

[ScrapMaker]

All I am saying is this...

A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server or a standard network connection for A-GPS information. If it also has functioning Autonomous or Standalone GPS, it may use standard GPS, which is sometimes slower on Time To First Fix, but does not lead to network dependent downsides, such a failure to work outside of network range, or charges for data traffic.

So even if a few Palm phones were not this way, typically aGPS means GPS that is assisted. Either way, we will find out in a few months hopefully.

[sfhub]

All I am saying is this...


A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server or a standard network connection for A-GPS information. **If** it also has functioning Autonomous or Standalone GPS, it may use standard GPS, which is sometimes slower on Time To First Fix, but does not lead to network dependent downsides, such a failure to work outside of network range, or charges for data traffic.

So even if a few Palm phones were not this way, typically aGPS means GPS that is assisted. Either way, we will find out in a few months hopefully.
Actually that quote is exactly what people have been trying to tell you.

You were saying A-GPS meant assisted and standalone GPS. That quote clearly said *If* an A-GPS also has functioning standalone GPS, meaning it might not.

This is just making sure everyone is using the same definitions so there are no misinterpretations over what is included. As mentioned we don't know what the Pre will support yet. Any claims made by Palm so far are arguably either not definitive or ambiguous.

[ScrapMaker]

Actually that quote is exactly what people have been trying to tell you.

You were saying A-GPS meant assisted and standalone GPS. That quote clearly said *If* an A-GPS also has functioning standalone GPS, meaning it might not.

This is just making sure everyone is using the same definitions so there are no misinterpretations over what is included. As mentioned we don't know what the Pre will support yet. Any claims made by Palm so far are arguably either not definitive or ambiguous.

Well I know that most modern phones can do both. Typically when someone says a phone has A-GPS, it is capable of both modes. Either way it boils down to these three things:

1) Most likely it does both modes, since most modern CDMA phones do,
2) We don't know for sure, either way, and
3) It doesn't really matter to 99% of people, since they will probably be using services like Google Maps, Live Search, Telenav, and Sprint Navigation, which require signal anyways.

Guess we'll find out in a few months.

[BTSmith]

Well I know that most modern phones can do both. Typically when someone says a phone has A-GPS, it is capable of both modes.

You mean : Except PALM! Their most recent release claiming standalone GPS and did not have it.

Palm then made a definition outside of EVERYONE elses.

If this were a Nokia, or LG, or Apple or HTC product there would be no doubt, but it iALM and PALM is the one company that has released high end phone on Sprint in their last sprint release. with standalone disabled.



3) It doesn't really matter to 99% of people, since they will probably be using services like Google Maps, Live Search, Telenav, and Sprint Navigation, which require signal anyways..

There are just huge numbers of articles on location based features that included scores of feautres which o not require a carrier signal.

Tagging your photos with GPS coordinates does not require a carrier signal if you have proper standalone GPS included.

there are also literally millions of sales of full scale navigation programs for smartphones like Garmin, Navigon and TomTom that don't require a signal either.

NO one is denying that there are lots of great, efficient and useful programs that also require a carrier signal. OK?

But there is unquestionably a value to standalone GPS on smartphones in addition to aGPS.

Any claims made by Palm so far are arguably either not definitive or ambiguous.
Exactly. Because Palm is the one single only company in the world, and the one single only entity in the world claiming a carrier signal requirement can be part of standalone GPS, -- when everyone else says that any carrier dependency for location definitively and objectivity excludes using the term standalone GPS

[ScrapMaker]

We should start taking bets on this. This thread would become 1000 times more useful.

[sfhub]

We should start taking bets on this. This thread would become 1000 times more useful.
Bet's on what? Regarding Pre, we don't know what is coming along and we aren't making predictions. We are looking for definitive information from Palm.

On the other hand, if you'd like to bet whether Palm has released a phone in the last year that had A-GPS but didn't have standalone GPS, I'll take that bet.

[ScrapMaker]

Bet's on what? Regarding Pre, we don't know what is coming along and we aren't making predictions. We are looking for definitive information from Palm.

On the other hand, if you'd like to bet whether Palm has released a phone in the last year that had A-GPS but didn't have standalone GPS, I'll take that bet.

A bet as to whether or not the Pre will have regular A-GPS. Standalone that is assisted by the network.

I was just pointing out that nothing we say here is worthwhile, so may as well do something productive, like gamble...

[sfhub]

A bet as to whether or not the Pre will have regular A-GPS. Standalone that is assisted by the network.
You got your bases covered on that one.

[ScrapMaker]

You got your bases covered on that one.

'tis what A-GPS is, afterall.

[BTSmith]

'tis what A-GPS is, afterall.

No that is the opposite.

Please stop trolling and making up when you have no idea.

[cwfluke]

No that is the opposite.

Please stop trolling and making up when you have no idea.

Stop acting as if you are the end-all be-all of GPS and its definitions, because its all about how one interprets it. Here is a good tutorial for anyone that wants to read up on a-GPS and stand alone GPS and not have to filter through the spewing nonsense in this thread.

From WMExperts:
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html

"This is why many of us in the forums often cringe when someone suggests that having a standalone SiRFIII chip in a phone is preferable to an aGPS system"

Having aGPS is preferable to standalone because (post 2002) when something is referred to as having aGPS it means it is capable of both. aGPS simply cuts the TTFF down by using the cell towers that pull down GPS information constantly anyway.

MOST of the time, an aGPS system refers to a system with BOTH assisted AND stand-alone GPS. Play semantics all you want to make yourself sound smarter than you actually are, but this is typically how it works.

[ScrapMaker]

Stop acting as if you are the end-all be-all of GPS and its definitions, because its all about how one interprets it. Here is a good tutorial for anyone that wants to read up on a-GPS and stand alone GPS and not have to filter through the spewing nonsense in this thread.

From WMExperts:
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html

"This is why many of us in the forums often cringe when someone suggests that having a standalone SiRFIII chip in a phone is preferable to an aGPS system"

Having aGPS is preferable to standalone because (post 2002) when something is referred to as having aGPS it means it is capable of both. aGPS simply cuts the TTFF down by using the cell towers that pull down GPS information constantly anyway.

MOST of the time, an aGPS system refers to a system with BOTH assisted AND stand-alone GPS. Play semantics all you want to make yourself sound smarter than you actually are, but this is typically how it works.

Praise the lord! I've been saying this the whole time, nearly word-for-word.

[sfhub]

MOST of the time, an aGPS system refers to a system with BOTH assisted AND stand-alone GPS.
And ALL the time stand-alone GPS has stand-alone GPS. Play semantics all you want. The point is Palm has played these semantics with the 800w and we want to know if they are playing semantics with the Pre. We really don't know either way with the information we have so far.

[BTSmith]

MOST of the time, an aGPS system refers to a system with BOTH assisted AND stand-alone GPS. Play semantics all you want to make yourself sound smarter than you actually are, but this is typically how it works.

Wow you didn't even read the article you posted? Nice. :scare:

Standalone - Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location.

Don't you get the point? Palm says this isn't true. Palm and palm alone claims this isn't true. Becuase their last big handset claimed to have stadnalone and didn't. they then redefines Standalone adn say Malatesta (who wrote the article you cited) is wrong! :scare:

These are not semantics -- but the heart of the article by Malatesta, who I know and who agrees on this -- if your read the article you posted instead of cutting and pasting.
Standalone mode is important. This means you do not need the carrier network at all to use GPS and usually you can install any GPS mapping software to boot.

please read the articles and palms position on standalone GPS, before you post -- this is a Palm thread!

Most phones claiming to have standalone and aGPS have it yes -- except PALMS :)

and don't say this, as it makes you look silly: "Stop acting as if you are the end-all be-all of GPS and its definitions, because its all about how one interprets it."

You don't "interpret" standards man, that is why they are there.

I am quoting the standard unambitious definitions used in patents, technical papers, and by experts, and by the article you cited , and in articlesin GPS trade publications -- none of which are "about how one interprets it" but all objective definitions.

[BTSmith]

MOST of the time, an aGPS system refers to a system with BOTH assisted AND stand-alone GPS. Play semantics all you want to make yourself sound smarter than you actually are, but this is typically how it works.

Objectively false., you are confused. . Standalone refers to absolutely no network dependence and no use of network services. aGPS is ALWAYS network dependent.

They are 100% excusive terms.

They can exist on the same device as two different modes --each with there beneiift and value to the consuemr.

The aGPS mode is never standalone

[ScrapMaker]

Not sure why we're bothering to explain this to you, but here is yet more information on the matter...

http://www.gps-practice-and-fun.com/a-gps.html

Basically, back in the day, you are right about it being a network-dependent solution. Sprint pretty much has always used the gpsone chipset though, which runs in standalone mode when needed.

http://forums.buzzaboutwireless.com/baw/board/message?board.id=PalmPDAsandSmartPhones&thread.id=873

The reason the 800w does not allow standalone is NOT a hardware issue. It's a software glitch. Something to do with the time calculations and not being connected to a time server.

um...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GPS (stand-alone)
You can use stand-alone GPS in the following cases:

When the data network is not available or the cellular radio is powered off.
When your Treo 800w does not have a voice and/or data plan from a mobile service provider.
To use stand-alone GPS:

Make sure your device is outside and in an area with sufficient open space.
Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.

Sounds like you're going on and on, based on unreliable, (read: wrong,) facts. Sorry bud, but this A-GPS debate is pretty much over. You are welcome to argue that perhaps the Palm Pre will also have the software glitch like the 800w, but that's highly unlikely.

[sfhub]

Sounds like same old games from Palm. Maybe they'll pay attention to complaints on this one since it is their flagship phone.

http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/188005-does-pre-have-true-standalone-gps.html

[ScrapMaker]

GPS on Pre uses GPS, cell tower triangulation, as WELL as WIFI.

Works so much better than my previous Sprint phones. WM phones never truly get the A-GPS portion right.

[sfhub]

GPS on Pre uses GPS, cell tower triangulation, as WELL as WIFI.

Works so much better than my previous Sprint phones. WM phones never truly get the A-GPS portion right.

I think you should read the WHOLE post:
http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/188005-does-pre-have-true-standalone-gps.html
Okay, so I'm very surprised this hasn't been discussed more, after the uproar with the 800w.

I assume it's probably because the only GPS programs that we have require data for maps, but still.

Using the ##GPS# code, I attempted a few tests. The answer, from my testing, appears to be no. Now I guess it's not as big an issue since that's what they always stated in advertisements this time, but it'd still be nice.

First, with the phone on and Wifi on I got a fix.
Phone off Wifi On: got a fix.
Airplane mode: got a fix.

But then, I remembered that some people with the 800w were confused because it already had what it needed from the assisted GPS, so I did a restart, with the phone still in Airplane mode.

After the restart:
Airplane mode: "Error Occurred."
I turned on Wifi: "Error Occurred."

Then I thought maybe turning on Airplane mode just turns off the GPS chip as well, so I turned off Airplane mode and used the hack on the Dev Wiki to only turn off the phone radio, and then restarted.

Unfortunately for that test, restarting the phone turned the radio back on. However, I tried immediately turning the radio off again, and went back in and did the test one last time, and of course, "Error Occurred."

This test was performed indoors, so it might be slightly flawed, but at a window where I've got three standalone GPS units that get a fix perfectly.

I'd love to hear others' findings as well, but it appears that unfortunately the Pre does not support a standalone GPS mode.

[ScrapMaker]

I think you should read the WHOLE post:
http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/188005-does-pre-have-true-standalone-gps.html

You should read the whole thread.

[sfhub]

Why? Other than the first post, it is just a clone of this thread. Same pointless back and forth.

Some people just don't realize the implementation is broken. It requires assistance from the towers to start up the GPS. Once that is there it works. However if you reboot your phone and that initial assistance isn't there, it fails.

Sounds to me like something something they could fix in software, but then again it sounded like the 800w problem could have been fixed also, but they never did.

[ScrapMaker]

Why? Other than the first post, it is just a clone of this thread. Same pointless back and forth.

Some people just don't realize the implementation is broken. It requires assistance from the towers to start up the GPS. Once that is there it works. However if you reboot your phone and that initial assistance isn't there, it fails.

Sounds to me like something something they could fix in software, but then again it sounded like the 800w problem could have been fixed also, but they never did.

It works on its own. Not sure what you're going on aboit.

[BTSmith]

Why? Other than the first post, it is just a clone of this thread. Same pointless back and forth.

Some people just don't realize the implementation is broken. It requires assistance from the towers to start up the GPS. Once that is there it works. However if you reboot your phone and that initial assistance isn't there, it fails.

Sounds to me like something something they could fix in software, but then again it sounded like the 800w problem could have been fixed also, but they never did.

Kudos for getting your facts right int he face of all this noise from people who don't know the definitions.

No one has reported a proper test with reset and ##GPS# on the Pre yet -- and Palm is famous for having its own definition of Standalone which disagrees with the whole industry -- so its claim is meaningless.

[BTSmith]

As it stands my Pre takes noticeably longer to get a fix via on aGPS than my WM handsets. I think Palm still needs some work on the aGPS

[ScrapMaker]

Kudos for getting your facts right int he face of all this noise from people who don't know the definitions.

No one has reported a proper test with reset and ##GPS# on the Pre yet -- and Palm is famous for having its own definition of Standalone which disagrees with the whole industry -- so its claim is meaningless.

As it stands my Pre takes noticeably longer to get a fix via on aGPS than my WM handsets. I think Palm still needs some work on the aGPS

Hilarious. Clearly the industry is divided in their definition of "A-GPS," but most of the time it IS assisted+standalone. The chip is the gpsOne from Qualcomm, which we already know the capabilities.

I get near-instant locks with my Pre, where my WM phones would take much longer, because WM phones cannot do true A-GPS properly. The only time my WM phones got quick GPS reception was if I just used it, or I loaded up Sprint Navigation---and even then it still wouldn't work in buildings, like right now, I'm in a server room, and I get a 2-second lock, even though I haven't used GPS in 5 days. It uses WIFI, GPS, and cell tower triangulation.

There has been confirmation that Sprint Navigation continues to work even after you lose signal, so for most, if not all possible situations, it works, in standalone mode.

edit, I said 2 second lock in this server room, but it was actually instantaneous--absolutely no wait.