WiMax a disaster ? perhaps Sprint should proceeding cautiously...

[monkeyboy]

http://www.commsday.com/node/228

A report delivered at a recent WiMax conference would seem to cast some doubt as to whether WiMax can really deliver. Claims included non-line-of-sight performance limited to 2km, poor indoor penetration, and poor latency and jitter making VOIP unuseable.

So exactly how well has Sprint tested WiMax, in the spectrum they plan to deploy it in ?

[sprinter4life]

http://www.commsday.com/node/228

A report delivered at a recent WiMax conference would seem to cast some doubt as to whether WiMax can really deliver. Claims included non-line-of-sight performance limited to 2km, poor indoor penetration, and poor latency and jitter making VOIP unuseable.

So exactly how well has Sprint tested WiMax, in the spectrum they plan to deploy it in ?

It looks like they had a poor experience. Maybe it's their vendors that they were using... who knows.

Sprint has tested wimax a ton in the spectrum that they have but they are also saying that extensive coverage within buildings will need additional mesh network style set ups. The frequency they're operating in is not guaranteeing exceptional signal strength but exceptional throughput. Which makes a proper buildout a little tricky since the signal only goes so far in the 2.7 band.

[jumonjii]

I don't understand why they don't skip wimax and go right into wibro..

[Genjinaro]

I don't understand why they don't skip wimax and go right into wibro..

AFAIK its the exact same thing, its just what Asia calls it.

[klmsu19]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/23/ceo-of-failed-wimax-operator-calls-the-technology-a-disaster/

"We haven't heard too many specifics when it comes to performance of actual WiMAX rollouts (and let's be real, we're all kind of waiting for LTE at this point, right?), but Garth Freeman, CEO of Buzz Broadband, apparently shuttered the company's Australian WiMAX rollout in Hervey Bay, publicly declaring that for his company and customers the technology "failed miserably". Apparently beyond about a mile from the base station non-line of sight performance was "non-existent", regular indoor use produced latencies as high as 1000ms even just 400m away, and the company had to scrap its network for TD-CDMA service on 1.9GHz just to make sure customers weren't completely left in the cold. Maybe they should have checked for an errant satellite, eh mate?"

Yikes WIMAX doesnt does too promising. Sounds like if Sprint doesnt do it EXACTLY right and planned out meticulously its going to fail big time.

[Dead_Rebel]

And since Sprint is so good at planning........... [/sarcasm]

[ookees]

It all depends on the saturation of wimax towers in any given area. South Korea has been using Wi-Max for a few years now. Have you heard of any complaints from them. They are at the fore-front of new ands exciting technologies. They would be the first ones to scrap it if it didnt work.

[ajblbv]

It all depends on the saturation of wimax towers in any given area. South Korea has been using Wi-Max for a few years now. Have you heard of any complaints from them. They are at the fore-front of new ands exciting technologies. They would be the first ones to scrap it if it didnt work.

The main reason that S Korea and Japan roll out techs a few years ahead of the US are willingness to spend and just simple size. The landmass of S Korea vs. USA is the reason it has been rolled out there for so long, plus the willingness to spend money on technology. The population of those two countries maximize the potential of digital innovation through many aspects of their lifes whereas here in the US few people go beyond texting and voice, making the bandwidth somewhat less important.

Using the Asian markets as a model for anything like this just isn't realistic for these reasons and many more.

[Rguy]

Ive seen some internal documents that dont show too much promise for WiMax. The tests were conducted last November though, perhaps they've made progress since then..

[ookees]

If you read the whole article you will see that this doesn't apply to all Wi-Max operators.

"Not all WiMAX operators are unhappy."

"Internode says an Airspan-supplied network is providing consistent average speeds of 6Mbps at distances up to 30km, with CEO Simon Hackett describing the platform as “proven.”

[knytphal]

Well, like always it's just going to be a wait and see. But I think everybody knows that wimax is not going to be Sprint's saviour - fixing the customer service and keeping customers needs to come first.

[monkeyboy]

Well, like always it's just going to be a wait and see. But I think everybody knows that wimax is not going to be Sprint's saviour - fixing the customer service and keeping customers needs to come first.Maybe wait and see for us on the outside, but Sprint certainly can't afford a wait and see attitude in determining its own business plans. WiMax may or may not be Sprint's "saviour", but just like the choices that each carrier has made in the 3G arena has had a significant impact in their market position, Sprint has *got* to make the right choice in deploying 4G.

Sprint *looked* like it was way out in front in the 4G arena with WiMax, but if it is going to be a disaster, that is obviously not the way to go compared with just jumping on LTE like everyone else (apparently)... If you're going to take a big gamble and stick your neck out, as Sprint looked like it was going to do with WiMax, it had better ABSOLUTELY be the right decision... particularly given Sprint's poor financial status -- Sprint can't afford another multi-billion dollar flop, like the Nextel merger...

[Matt]

:good:

[klmsu19]

The main reason that S Korea and Japan roll out techs a few years ahead of the US are willingness to spend and just simple size. The landmass of S Korea vs. USA is the reason it has been rolled out there for so long, plus the willingness to spend money on technology. The population of those two countries maximize the potential of digital innovation through many aspects of their lifes whereas here in the US few people go beyond texting and voice, making the bandwidth somewhat less important.

Using the Asian markets as a model for anything like this just isn't realistic for these reasons and many more.

Agreed. People need to think about the cost in relation to country size. South Korea and Japan are dwarfs in comparison to the sheer land mass of the US to cover. Each country is about the physical size of 1 US state each. Think about covering 25 times that area! Their populations are squeezed in a much smaller area making covering more people MUCH MUCH easier. Way less towers to cover many many more people. People in the US are way more spread out. If WIMAX has bad long distance coverage, it may be financially impossible to make this a mainstream usable technology.

Think about it this way, say 500 towers covers each country hypothetically. Thatd mean the US would needs 12,500 towers to cover the population to provide the same quality service. Think about the cost ramifications of those numbers. Say (hypothetically again for comparison i have no clue as to the cost) $500,000 per tower. So it cost each of those countries $250 million. Now think Sprints cost at 6.25 BILLION.

Plus the fact foreign cell companies are much more eager to invest in new technologies, which Sprint simply doesnt have the luxury of doing.

[Dead_Rebel]

Between the costs of licensing, regulations, mounds and mounds of paper work, leasing of property, raw materials, equipment, tying in to major backbone (often requires going through affiliate or 3rd party if in a rural area), labor costs, and all the logistics between, it actually costs close to 1 million smackers for each and every tower built. Don't forget there's gotta be power to the tower (rhymes every time!), an access road, all kinds of goodies that most people don't really take into consideration. That's why engineers get paid the big bucks kids!

[kayzinwillobee]

If Xhom has the same kind of customer service that sprint has no matter how sweet it is, it will fail. Even though they've claimed to have been improving customer service i have'nt noticed anything. Its still a hassel dealing with Sprint. Xhom is doomed.:td:

[Frambosie]

Intel has invested too much cash thus far to let WiMax fail.

I think we need to remember that Xohm's business model is that of an internet service provider, not a cellular provider. Right now, WiMax and Xohm seem to be strictly for data and not for data/voice.

Let's not unfairly cut Sprint off just yet.

[VDubb]

WiMAX is looking to become strong. Check this out:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080325/wimax_funding.html?.v=4

And for the lazy:

Report: Comcast, Time Warner Cable in Talks to Fund Nationwide WiMax Broadband Network

NEW YORK (AP) -- Comcast Corp. and Time Warner Cable Inc. are discussing a plan to fund a new wireless Internet venture that would be run by Sprint Nextel Corp. and Clearwire Corp., The Wall Street Journal reported late Tuesday.

The partnership would create a nationwide network using WiMax technology, which promises faster wireless Web connection speeds for laptops and cell phones than mobile operators' third-generation networks.

Under the plan, Philadelphia-based Comcast, the nation's largest cable operator, would put up as much as $1 billion, while No. 2 Time Warner Cable would add $500 million, the Journal reported, citing unnamed people familiar with the matter. Another cable operator, Bright House Networks, would contribute $100 million to $200 million, the Journal said.

Spokesmen for Comcast and Sprint declined to comment when reached by The Associated Press late Tuesday. Representatives of New York-based Time Warner Cable could not immediately be reached for comment.

Sprint, based in Overland Park, Kan., is testing WiMax service in a few markets, and Clearwire, a Kirkland, Wash., startup founded by wireless pioneer Craig McCaw, has its own network based on WiMax technology in some parts of the country. The two companies have been working for months on a joint WiMax venture that would attract funding from WiMax backer Intel Corp.

Google Inc. could also provide funding, the Journal reported.

Under the plan being discussed, the amount of each company's contribution could change, and it is still possible the entire deal could fall through, the Journal said.

-VDubb

[Frambosie]

Very good news, indeed. This could potentially inject an additional 2 Billion (on top of the 2 Billion Intel has already introduced) for a national WiMax build-out. If Google is serious about openness, they may very well jump on this as well. Looks like it will be an interesting next couple of weeks!

[IsLNdbOi]

Anyone see this:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/25/comcast-time-warner-sprint-and-clearwire-could-join-forces-on/

[Dan]

Anyone see this:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/25/comcast-time-warner-sprint-and-clearwire-could-join-forces-on/

pretty much what was posted just above you? :)

[IsLNdbOi]

Lol, right. Didn't even read the thread, but did see the other engadget link above. :p

[monkeyboy]

Very good news, indeed. This could potentially inject an additional 2 Billion (on top of the 2 Billion Intel has already introduced) for a national WiMax build-out. If Google is serious about openness, they may very well jump on this as well. Looks like it will be an interesting next couple of weeks!Great, all well and good... BUT the question that the OP posed was not whether there was sufficient industry support and funding for WiMax, but rather, on technical grounds and performance, WiMax would actually live up to the expectations. Namely, does WiMax, operating within the spectrum that Sprint has available for it, perform acceptably in terms of distance (and required tower spacing), bandwidth, latency, jitter, and penetration, indoors and non-line-of-sight propagation.

Would love to see ACTUAL, REAL-WORLD data on WiMAX performance, under typical and worst-case conditions in the real environment, like where I live, Upstate NY, where the terrain is VERY hilly and PCS/CDMA (1900Mhz) does only so-so (and cell/850Mhz certainly does better).

[ookees]

Great, all well and good... BUT the question that the OP posed was not whether there was sufficient industry support and funding for WiMax, but rather, on technical grounds and performance, WiMax would actually live up to the expectations. Namely, does WiMax, operating within the spectrum that Sprint has available for it, perform acceptably in terms of distance (and required tower spacing), bandwidth, latency, jitter, and penetration, indoors and non-line-of-sight propagation.

Would love to see ACTUAL, REAL-WORLD data on WiMAX performance, under typical and worst-case conditions in the real environment, like where I live, Upstate NY, where the terrain is VERY hilly and PCS/CDMA (1900Mhz) does only so-so (and cell/850Mhz certainly does better).

Your gonna have to wait a while before you can make that decision based on where you live. Preliminary reports will all come out of the major cities and if they don't do it right there, then there is no hope. But if it succeeds in the city and fails in the rural areas, then your just gonna have to chalk it up to where you live. Thats not gonna cause WiMax to fail. It will be an inconveince for frequent travelers, but I can only assumme that maybe 5%-10% of Sprint's customers do that.

For the most part if you live in the major cities you should be fine. There will be enough tower placements and repeaters to bounce the signal around so it gets to you. Look at Sirius and how if your on the the FDR in manhattan and when you go under the buildings you dont lose your signal. Yet I could be in any of the other boroughs and go under a highway over-pass for 5 seconds and my signal cuts out. It all depends on where you live, and since there are millions more in the city areas Sprint and all its backers are going to make sure WiMax works no matter the cost. There is just too much money invested in it.

As far as the original Commsday article, the provider was using it in Australia. 95% of that country is one big barren island. So the cities are not nearly as large and the buildings as tall as our cities are. WiMax will have more of an advantage based on tower and repeater placement in our cities due to the proximity of buildings to one another.

Just my opinion.:D

[Judah]

:good:

[monkeyboy]

Your gonna have to wait a while before you can make that decision based on where you live. Preliminary reports will all come out of the major cities and if they don't do it right there, then there is no hope. But if it succeeds in the city and fails in the rural areas, then your just gonna have to chalk it up to where you live. Thats not gonna cause WiMax to fail. ...For the most part if you live in the major cities you should be fine. There will be enough tower placements and repeaters to bounce the signal around so it gets to you. ...As far as the original Commsday article, the provider was using it in Australia. 95% of that country is one big barren island. So the cities are not nearly as large and the buildings as tall as our cities are. WiMax will have more of an advantage based on tower and repeater placement in our cities due to the proximity of buildings to one another.mmm well I can appreciate that we're gonna have to wait a bit more for real data, but still, it should be possible to predict whether, e.g. WiMax will be at least as tolerant of terrain, buildings, etc as, say EVDO in the PCS band, or LTE. It should be in the specs of WiMax as to what kinds of signal strengths and dropouts it can tolerate.

As far as "if it works in the major cities, that's good enough...", I'm not that convinced... If WiMax cannot operate well in the suburbs or more hilly terrain, but EVDO and LTE *can*, then I'm not sure that WiMax will be all that successful.

As far as Australia, I don't quite understand your argument... yes we have more tower/repeater density, but given what you say that Australia has more open territory, then signal propagation should be better in Oz. The fact that the report, in Oz, specifically mentions poor performance as far as building penetration and non-line-of-sight propagation, I would think, is even greater cause for concern given the building density in US cities, despite the higher tower/repeater density. So I don't quite understand the idea that Oz represents a worst case scenerio compared with the US...

Anyways, I would think it should be possible even now to predict whether WiMax does have more theoretical performance issues than either LTE or EVDO. I understand that Intel et al has a lot riding on it, which may be a bad thing in terms of being technically objective in making these sorts of fair comparisons.

[Dan]

Wouldn't the frequencies the WiMAX system in australia plus the power that their licenses allowed to operate at have a huge bearing on how successful it was?

Just a thought, the WiMAX may be fine, but the regulations imposed my have limited the effective range and made it unusable in its intended application. Obviously you got better range on a 3 watt analog phone than on a modern CDMA phone operating at lower power levels. In the same regard, you get better in building penetration on 850 than 1900 and the same should hold true again for 2500mhz.

Last thoughts: Is sprint planning on making WiMAX a replacement to CDMA, or as a complimenting service for higher speeds in certain areas while still supporting EVDO and the 1900 MHz service? It would seem to make sense that for the near future, WiMAX will compliment the existing CDMA network and not compete with it.

Will the small amount of 800 MHz left over after the give back to the govt be usable to run WiMAX on in areas that require better in building penetration, or can WiMAX only operate on the higher frequencies?

Once sprint's full vision of how WiMAX will work is known, then we can probably understand the likely success of the service. :)

:wavey:

[monkeyboy]

Is sprint planning on making WiMAX a replacement to CDMA, or as a complimenting service for higher speeds in certain areas while still supporting EVDO and the 1900 MHz service? It would seem to make sense that for the near future, WiMAX will compliment the existing CDMA network and not compete with it.

Will the small amount of 800 MHz left over after the give back to the govt be usable to run WiMAX on in areas that require better in building penetration, or can WiMAX only operate on the higher frequencies?WiMax will at least at first be data only, but at some point it is predicted that all voice traffic will be moved over to VOIP, over a data connection, obviating the need for CDMA in the future. Whether WiMax will eventual serve in this role in the future is unknown... Nevertheless my point in bringing up EVDO vs WiMax is simply that given a choice between a slower data connection (EVDO) that works "everywhere" (it *is* supposed to be the backbone for Qchat, after all), versus a faster connection (WiMax) that only works in the center of major cities (if that is going to be the case), I'm not sure that WiMax will be all that successful.

Look at the choice between EVDO and WiFi... Sprint doesn't even see fit to include Wifi in most phones, and Tmo's Wifi service is not all that popular (Tmo is now scrambling to come up with its 3G data service). I know it isn't exactly a fair comparison, but anyways...

WiMax can work over a wide range of frequencies, but Sprint isn't expected to use 800Mhz for WiMax...

Mostly, for Sprint's sake, I'm just hoping that Sprint makes the right choice in 4G technologies... it can't afford another expensive mistake... And with everyone else doing LTE, you have to wonder... about the hidden side effects... like handset availability, etc...

[corrupt81]

Theres still plenty of areas that sprint STILL doesn't have EVDO in.. like tourist hot spot panama city beach.

I wish sprint would be using some of this money to expand their existing network, finishing the evdo rollout, and maybe paying a few extra bucks to hire and train more American CS reps rather than outsourcing it to countries that don't even have sprint to begin with.

[Frambosie]

WiMax will at least at first be data only, but at some point it is predicted that all voice traffic will be moved over to VOIP, over a data connection, obviating the need for CDMA in the future. Whether WiMax will eventual serve in this role in the future is unknown... Nevertheless my point in bringing up EVDO vs WiMax is simply that given a choice between a slower data connection (EVDO) that works "everywhere" (it *is* supposed to be the backbone for Qchat, after all), versus a faster connection (WiMax) that only works in the center of major cities (if that is going to be the case), I'm not sure that WiMax will be all that successful.

Look at the choice between EVDO and WiFi... Sprint doesn't even see fit to include Wifi in most phones, and Tmo's Wifi service is not all that popular (Tmo is now scrambling to come up with its 3G data service). I know it isn't exactly a fair comparison, but anyways...

WiMax can work over a wide range of frequencies, but Sprint isn't expected to use 800Mhz for WiMax...

Mostly, for Sprint's sake, I'm just hoping that Sprint makes the right choice in 4G technologies... it can't afford another expensive mistake... And with everyone else doing LTE, you have to wonder... about the hidden side effects... like handset availability, etc...

You make some solid points here. Right now, we simply don't know what the roadmap is. However, I'm sure Sprint has a plan. The way things look now, i would said that WiMax is not, at least intially, designed to be a voice and data solution. Xohm's business model is very similar to that of current ISPs and all the talk i've heard seems to indicate that Xohm will, in fact, be an ISP.

As far as coverage, my understanding is that US WiMax will be run across the 2.5Ghz spectrum, of which Sprint owns about 70% of, and Clearwire owns an additional 14-15%. Now, i don't know as much as propogation. Given the frequency it appears that Sprint is going to need a significant number of WiMax towers, but i'm not an engineer or a physics expert.

As far as LTE goes, i would be very careful. LTE standards haven't even been ratified or expected and only small scale beta testing has been accomplished. So, LTE is still very much a work in progress - given this i wouldn't make any comparisons or judgments just yet.

[slick69]

WiMAX will exist alongside CDMA DOrA, but it'll compete by its nature - both are relatively fast, unmetered (for the time being) connections built into or built for mobile internet devices. What is the difference between an OQO with Sprint EV-DO card built in and an OQO with WiMAX built in or with a USB modem for either? In SK I see they tend to use WiBro for MIDs, UMPCs and PDAs and DOrA for phones. In the US we have DOrA on PDA phones.

Sprint has said they will differentiate Xohm and DOrA by offering the Xohm service with fewer restrictions and more flexibility, let's see how that works out in practice.

[Dubspoon]

From what was said a little after launch it is going to open devices and contracts but usage would be capped